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Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

economist.com

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Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#61

Post by jcranmer »

VictorPath wrote: post #35
unclebucknasty wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia annexed Crimea and has been engaged in a proxy war in Donbas for 8 years. The Kremlin has now amassed 100K - 200K troops at Ukraine's border. Yet, the Russian propaganda machine continues to claim it's the West that wants war. Can you explain how the West is the aggressor here?

> Russia annexed Crimea The Russian military was in the Crimea back when redcoats were stationed in New York City, and has been in the Crimea ever since.

Russia also signed a treaty that said it agreed that Crimea was part of Ukraine, not Russia. It tore that treaty up and invaded Crimea because Ukraine was thinking about not extending Russia's lease on Sevastopol.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#62

Post by throw0101a »

valyagolev wrote: post #5

my favorite hot take from the economist about this war was that one article that considered if Russia might lose because the roads in Ukraine during spring are just dirty and bad from one of the worst publications to get one’s opinions from this graduated into comedy edit: for some people it was a serious enough proposition to entertain that i had to check and indicate that no, the analysis shows that russia won’t lo…

Well, that's one of the things that did help to do in the Nazis during Barbarossa (amongst many others of course). The Russians even have a name for it:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasputitsa

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#63

Post by dbspin »

ComradePhil wrote: post #21

Russia has absolutely nothing to gain by escalating war in Europe. America has nothing to lose. Everyone knows who wants war.

Neither part of that is true. The US and the entire world economy will suffer immeasurably if there's all out war. The US will be seen as even more ineffectual internationally than it already is after Afghanistan, emboldening Chinese aggression in Taiwan and elsewhere.

Russia - lets be clear, the country that is threatening an all out invasion of a Sovereign nation it's already attacked and occupied; has the possibility of gaining territory, blocking NATO expansion, threatening it's former Warsaw Pact partners into favourable deals, gaining control over Ukraine's enormous agricultural resources, etc etc.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#64

Post by valyagolev »

rosndo wrote: post #47
valyagolev wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

okay, i misremembered. for me it’s like i was wrong about an onion article

You misremembered to such an extent that the article actually said the exact opposite of what you thought it did? Impressive.

if i write an article saying “is elon musk alien?.. no” it would be reasonable to say that i wrote an article about him being an alien. it’s not their conclusion that is idiotic, it’s the hypothesis itself

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#65

Post by bsenftner »

"Elites have hijacked Russia and conflated the country's interests with their own"

Um... Replace "Russia" with the name of any nation on earth, and the sentence remains true.

As an individual with an Economics graduate degree, The Economist strikes me as such a flimsy propaganda rag, it's sad and pathetic it has any attention at all.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#66

Post by throwaway4good »

For some alternative perspective - here is an analysis from Chinese government outlet Global Times:

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202202/1252149.shtml

US needs Ukraine crisis to harm European economy, and legitimize its military presence

...

Chinese analysts said Sunday that keeping the crisis intense will benefit the US in several fields: legitimizing its military presence in Europe by demonizing Russia and poisoning Russia-EU ties, increasing uncertainties and concerns to harm the eurozone economy so there will be more capital flight from the continent to the US and thus easing the US inflation pressure, and using the tension to stir up trouble for China-Russia ties.

...

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#67

Post by BobbyJo »

hollerith wrote: post #55
BobbyJo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, that's still Russia being the aggressor. Ukraine, as a sovereign nation, can align with who they wish, and be lobbied by anyone and everyone to do so, and Russia doesn't get a say in that.

And if 20 years from now, Mexico and Canada decide to align with China and invite Chinese troops to set up on the border with the US, then the leader of the US should explain to US citizen living near the borders, "Hey, I know this makes us vulnerable, and I don't like it any more than you do, but I cannot ethically do anything about it because no country gets a say in the military alliances of any other country," ac…

Did you forget Cuba exists and that the US was regarded a the agressor for trying to get the soviets out of there? Or would it have be totally ok with you if we invaded them?

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#69

Post by jabagigo »

daniel-cussen wrote: post #8

So to begin with, fact, Putin is a better chess player than Biden. You might think, oh it's just a board game, computers are better at it. You could say that. Apparently the strategy right now is get right next to the border of Ukraine and do military exercises, then watch as NATO loses its shit with every passing second.

I think the question the article brings up is, why is Russia playing chess against Ukraine and other such countries?

Why isn't Russia instead building bridges, establishing stronger economic bonds, and addressing its own issues inside itself to help increase the quality of life of its people?

And they seem to answer it by saying that Putin and entourage love chess and are really good at it, that's why.

Thus the conclusion is that they are more focused on themselves then what's best for their people.

I don't know if that's true, but it's what I understood from the article.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#70

Post by oceanplexian »

throwaway6734 wrote: post #23
gfosco wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're too cynical, but we can have our own takes. From what I was able to piece together, Russia isn't the one starting this conflict, in action. It's NATO aligned countries trying to get Ukraine to join NATO. Russia made it very clear, that ain't happening and they'll go to war over it. So who's still agitating for war? The zero-evidence claims that Russia was about to invade sure look like pure propa…

>Russia isn't the one starting this conflict >Russia made it very clear, that ain't happening and they'll go to war over it. Which one is it? >The zero-evidence claims that Russia was about to invade sure look like pure propaganda from the same people who are thirsty for it. The massive troop build up along Ukraine's border and in Belarus? You're spreading Russian propaganda.

The problem is that Russia isn’t the only country that puts out propaganda, and most people are now well aware after the lies that were used to justify the Iraq war. So far I haven’t seen any objective facts except some out of context satellite photos and anonymously sources information from the US intelligence community (A group of people who’s job descriptions are to spread misinformation)
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