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UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

blog.jgc.org

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Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#61

Post by cabalamat »

samarudge wrote: post #10

While I'm aware this may get downvoted to the depths, I feel I have to say it. Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths? If the curriculum was changed to include programming, it would almost certainly reduce the funding and time put into other, more important subjects. While a good understanding of computers will help with almost any job in the future, unless you're going…

> While a good understanding of computers will help with almost any job in the future, unless you're going into computing as a career, learning specifically programming will be absolutely no help. [...] how much better do you think they would be able to do their job if they knew how to program?

Education is -- or should be -- about drawing out a learner's latent talents so they can achieve their full potential. It shouldn't merely be a narrow, Gradgrindian, process aimed solely at turning someone into an obedient wage-slave for corporations.

I think learning programming can help someone achieve their full potential in three ways:

1. programming forces someone to think very clearly and logically about a problem. This is a very useful skill, even if you never write code ever again.

2. introducing someone to programming helps them to understand computers. We are rapidly becoming a society where computers are ubiquitous, so thins will be important to them throughout their lives -- as an individual using technology, as a citizen, as a voter, as a parent, and yes, as an employee.

3. an introduction to programming will inspire some people to take it further, as a career or as a hobby.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#62

Post by tcarnell »

Well as nobody tought the founders to Google, Facebook or Microsoft to program a computer - especially at school, there is absolutely no logical reason to teach kids such a specific skill. The programmers I know, and notable the better ones are all self-taught (with the help of the astonishingly open and supportive IT community).

I think the author of the letter is somewhat confused as to Eric Schmidt's sentiment. I think schools could, or perhaps should provide better resources and encourage students to learn more about computer technology, but I agree with the other comments that core subjects like language, maths and science are far more important.

However, there is no reason why teachers could not discuss, when relevant the history, technology, people and science behind the British computer engineering legacy.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#63

Post by DanBC »

Maro wrote: post #37
jcromartie wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because teaching programming is a broad policy decision. It's exactly the sort of thing the particular department would be in charge of. If JGC had merely been suggesting a certain programming language or teaching software, then the response would have been appropriate. As it is, it sounds like they didn't understand what JGC wrote. "Be it with Raspberry Pi computers in schools, or with some other hardware, we need t…

You are right, his email was broader and not just specific to Raspberry Pi. Although I'm still not sure what the OP expected and why this was posted here.

People here will know more than most the strong history of computing that Britain has. Significant contributions to many areas of computing have come from Britain. Just computer games in the UK is a huge industry. The OP thought that there is a lack of programming experienced by young people. Other people agree; see Raspberry Pi project for an example. IT in English schools is pretty poor, there's some simplistic "How to use a word processor, how to use a spreadsheet" but nothing in depth.

Skills used in programming overlap many other areas of learning. Gather information; reduce the problem; attack each part; plan it out; step it through; iterate.

The UK has some scarily poor implementations of big IT projects. Hugely late, over budget, broken - and those are the ones that make it to completion. (Although I welcome any information about the good systems.)

We as a nation desperately need people who can program. Not just regular web / app / desktop programming, but also low quantity high quality machine shop style CNC / Pick and Place / etc manufacturing.

The fact that the department gave a useless reply is no surprise, but is disappointing.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#64

Post by [deleted] »

timthorn wrote: post #20
cturner wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not going to have time to open all his mail. Do the same letter handwritten. Put a post-it note on the front saying "roommate from college" so whoever opens his mail will know to pass it through. Send it snail-mail. Having said that, I think your letter had no point, and getting upset about the response is crazy. Your letter has a long introduction and then asks for hand-waving assistance, "The project does not…

The mbed team in Cambridge has been very successful at engaging with local schools - I can also hook you up with them.

[deleted]

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#66

Post by Maro »

DanBC wrote: post #63
Maro wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right, his email was broader and not just specific to Raspberry Pi. Although I'm still not sure what the OP expected and why this was posted here.

People here will know more than most the strong history of computing that Britain has. Significant contributions to many areas of computing have come from Britain. Just computer games in the UK is a huge industry. The OP thought that there is a lack of programming experienced by young people. Other people agree; see Raspberry Pi project for an example. IT in English schools is pretty poor, there's some simplistic "Ho…

"The fact that the department gave a useless reply is no surprise."

That's exactly why I asked why it was posted here. This just isn't noteworthy. It seems to me it's being upvoted because of the OP.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#67

Post by vilhelm_s »

samarudge wrote: post #29
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths? // > adding an extra topic that will only be useful to a small number of people would be wasteful. // Just as a comparison. In Wales, Welsh language is taught throughout school and in every lesson. Yet English language is understood and used by nearly everyone in Wales and Welsh language is used by less than 20% of people. In add…

Yes, Welsh is pretty much useless, but we're talking about introducing a new subject. Maths is useful in a lot more situations than programming would be, I bet most people don't realize how often they use maths without realizing. Things like algebra are about logic, deducing things, figuring things out. French is, again, a subject that can be dropped at 16 and not a core subject. I didn't study French at school (Tech…

Programming is _also_ about logic, deducing things, figuring things out!

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#68

Post by Rusky »

Dn_Ab wrote: post #55
samarudge wrote: post #10

While I'm aware this may get downvoted to the depths, I feel I have to say it. Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths? If the curriculum was changed to include programming, it would almost certainly reduce the funding and time put into other, more important subjects. While a good understanding of computers will help with almost any job in the future, unless you're going…

Programming is a tool like maths. There are many people who whose life would be greatly enriched by a simple knowledge of ratios and estimation. Yet most claim they have no need of maths. Programming need not be taught for its own sake. It could be an enabler together with maths. A tool for exploring concepts. A lot of maths is difficult because it is so far from everyday concepts. So it takes a great deal of effort…

> But no one can make use of something whose existence they are unaware of.

Exactly. Like you mentioned about ratios or estimation, imagine someone who had no idea what algebra was. If society let them claim it was useless to them, even if they never sit down and solve equations as part of their job, having a slightly deeper understanding of mathematics would influence how they interact with the world.

Even just knowing that a computer can be programmed, understanding data structures when working with office programs, understanding security when using passwords, automating things like personal finance, or understanding what they're being sold, would be a big step up. Understanding more than just mystical flickering 1s and 0s from some Hollywood movie would enable so much.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#69

Post by Rusky »

samarudge wrote: post #29
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths? // > adding an extra topic that will only be useful to a small number of people would be wasteful. // Just as a comparison. In Wales, Welsh language is taught throughout school and in every lesson. Yet English language is understood and used by nearly everyone in Wales and Welsh language is used by less than 20% of people. In add…

Yes, Welsh is pretty much useless, but we're talking about introducing a new subject. Maths is useful in a lot more situations than programming would be, I bet most people don't realize how often they use maths without realizing. Things like algebra are about logic, deducing things, figuring things out. French is, again, a subject that can be dropped at 16 and not a core subject. I didn't study French at school (Tech…

Math is much more pervasive than programming, but it is also true that people often do or could use the basic ideas of programming without realizing. For example: understanding data structures when using a word processor or spreadsheet, understanding security when using passwords, understanding data representation when using any kind of digital tool, etc.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#70

Post by AlexC04 »

I was a high school ICT (computer) teacher in the UK for five years. Unless there are some serious changes to the political climate, programming will never fit well in schools.

The biggest reason being that programming is hard... which means that some students won't do well.

There is a very serious problem with the politics of the UK education system because of the results-oriented culture.

Firstly, OFSTED publishes a list of the best schools in the UK. These results are based on inspections, but the inspections are just a sham/cover to allow them to rank schools based on their test results.

You see, kids who get graded in the UK school system all write the exact same exam, in the exact same hour globally (accounting for timezones). This standardized testing, allows for students and schools to be compared against a single "fair" yardstick.

Now schools that have the students who get the highest average score are declared "the best" (after a cursory, sham inspection) the ones that score lowest are declared "the worst" and sometimes closed.

So... student performance is suddenly directly related to teacher income.

So teachers start teaching kids how to pass the test. Administrators guide their students into classes that have higher averages... you know, the ones that are easier to pass?

That's part of the reason why the GNVQ in ICT became so popular - the least able students could get 4 "A" grade credits easily. I mean, students who sometimes had to be reminded to breathe could walk out with 4 "A" credits.

Some schools who learned how to exploit that system found themselves "vaulting" up the league tables ... bonuses all arround! Headteachers were suddenly being classed as "Superheads" ... silly crap like that.

Anyways, trouble with a comprehensive "proper" programming course... it's hard. Nobody is getting a knighthood in education for doing it the hard-way.

I tried teaching a group of 12 year olds how to write video games in flash. They not only loved it, but it wasn't that hard. One or two got as far as a working PONG. Unfortunately, I was so far off curriculum at that point it wasn't funny. I could only give programming lessons as a special treat.

The rest of the time it was where to click in Microsoft office.

If we were able to do programming at the High School level, maybe I wouldn't have left teaching. The politics of OFSTED would probably have driven me out anyways the UK education system is actually doing a huge disservice to kids.

HOWEVER* politicians can "look tough" by spouting bollocks about how strict they are with respect to educational standards. Truth is they're light years behind places like Australia and Canada. Worst part is the politicians of the world all seem to be scrambling to match the UK system (because it gives them something to look tough about).

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