Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions • Hacker News Board

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#61

Post by tomlockwood » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 8:59 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #57

tomlockwood wrote: post #25

I'd like anyone who considers more harsh jail punishments to be the solution to consider that the USA has the highest per-capita prison population in the world. Only 1/5 of those prisoners is in there for drug-related crime. Perhaps harsher punishments aren't going to help here.

Consider another few possibilities. 1. Americans are just more likely to be criminals. 2. Other nations may be equally or even more ineffective at tackling crime. The assumption that jail doesn't work rests on the assumption that other nations track crime as effectively and that their people are equally criminal.

I'm totally behind 1, open to any evidence of 2. The question then if we decide 1 is the case is - why? What predisposes Americans to, the most jailable crime in the world?

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#62

Post by maxwell » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 8:59 PM UTC

creamynebula wrote: post #26

burner556 wrote: post #5

Quoted post unavailable.

Or perhaps poverty and inequality are to blame? If people had a place in society and could afford basic things, why would they steal?

Maybe for the boosters that grab the items, but this isn't desperation theft, it's the rise of new, effective criminal enterprises. Why has shoplifting become a lucrative criminal business for the operators who pay the actual thieves?

Because they can easily move the goods online, which wasn't the case until recently.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#63

Post by phendrenad2 » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 8:59 PM UTC

tomlockwood wrote: post #25

I'd like anyone who considers more harsh jail punishments to be the solution to consider that the USA has the highest per-capita prison population in the world. Only 1/5 of those prisoners is in there for drug-related crime. Perhaps harsher punishments aren't going to help here.

Locking people up also increases the tax burden on everyone else, because housing someone in a prison isn't free.

The real solutions will be technical. More precise delivery tracking (so you know when your package will arrive, so it doesn't get stolen off your porch an hour later). Drone delivery. Package lockers. Man traps at the supermarket exits.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#64

Post by zbentley » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 8:59 PM UTC

coryrc wrote: post #40

ardit33 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely not. There are actually human costs to it. My parents are old (in their 70s), and they are lucky to have a CVS near by where they can walk and get their medicine and basic needs. Pharmacies and grocery stores being forced to close due to unchecked theft inflict pain and major lowering of quality of life to people around the neighborhood, and especially to people that can't just drive to the next store. Als…

We live in a democracy, more or less, which allows the majority to dictate what is acceptable in society. The majority has decided that a subset of society is not beholden to the laws the rest of us are. Jim Crow laws were unjust and it was the victims who had to fight it. Elderly people have most of the wealth in this country, if they've got a problem then they should put that wealth to work convincing a majority of…

> Elderly people have most of the wealth in this country

That's...so reductive as to be actively misleading. "Have", "most", and "wealth" all deserve several asterisks.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#65

Post by missingrib » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 9:00 PM UTC

qbasic_forever wrote: post #38

ameminator wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if the people running the store can't profitably operate (due to theft or other factors), why should they operate? Why should the owners of that supermarket go into ruin just to give you another shopping option? Why is it their responsibility to keep you fed at all?

Why should firefighters put out fires? They make no money from it. It costs them money in equipment wear, water usage, etc.!

People could pay for a service where firefighters would come and put out a potential fire at their house.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#66

Post by phendrenad2 » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 9:00 PM UTC

tomlockwood wrote: post #61

MattGaiser wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider another few possibilities. 1. Americans are just more likely to be criminals. 2. Other nations may be equally or even more ineffective at tackling crime. The assumption that jail doesn't work rests on the assumption that other nations track crime as effectively and that their people are equally criminal.

I'm totally behind 1, open to any evidence of 2. The question then if we decide 1 is the case is - why? What predisposes Americans to, the most jailable crime in the world?

Let's figure out if it's 1 or 2 first.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#67

Post by ameminator » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 9:00 PM UTC

qbasic_forever wrote: post #38

ameminator wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if the people running the store can't profitably operate (due to theft or other factors), why should they operate? Why should the owners of that supermarket go into ruin just to give you another shopping option? Why is it their responsibility to keep you fed at all?

Why should firefighters put out fires? They make no money from it. It costs them money in equipment wear, water usage, etc.!

Running a store is very different from firefighting - arguably there is a much higher moral good being done by literally saving people from imminent death by burning. Firefighters are also paid in many places, even if volunteer services are available.

Finally, they do have charitable "food delivery" places - they are called soup kitchens, but they are intended for people who can't afford food at all, not necessarily for people who have the money to buy what they need.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#68

Post by ryan93 » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 9:01 PM UTC

ahh wrote: post #46

Bostonian wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to incarcerate a first-time shoplifter, but a habitual thief deserves to spend some time in jail, and the threat of jail will deter people from being habitual thieves.

If they spend time in jail after the first time, maybe they won't become a habitual thief.

In fact its impossible to steal from a CVS while in jail.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#69

Post by maxwell » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 9:01 PM UTC

ahh wrote: post #45

creamynebula wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or perhaps poverty and inequality are to blame? If people had a place in society and could afford basic things, why would they steal?

Because it's fun, easy, and beats working. Unless we arrest, prosecute, and imprison them. Or punish them other ways; how about flogging? It's arguably both a better deterrent and more humane than prison. Saying "Sure, go ahead!" is better for no one.

The issue seems less the boosters who are paid to shoplift than the operators moving the goods online profitably enough to hire an army of thieves.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#70

Post by phendrenad2 » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 9:01 PM UTC

WalterGR wrote: post #59

Some companies are lying about why they’re closing stores. For example, Walgreens announced in 2019 that it would shutter 200 stores. Blaming shoplifting sounds like some serious Chamber of Commerce spin to direct attention away from them abandoning locations and the jobs that go with them, and to give ammunition to pro-corporate pro-policing factions.

So what is the real reason they're closing the stores? I want to hear the rest of the conspiracy theory :(