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Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

saurik.com

61–70 of 156 posts

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#61
Hey! Optimism's head of engineering here!

We're super greatful to saurik for writing up such a great analysis of what he found. If you want to hear some of our key takeaways as the maintainers of the network, you can check out our disclosure post here [1].

If you're wondering WTF Optimism is... we are building an optimistic rollup on top of ethereum. The basic idea is to de-couple blockchain computation from data availability and allow a new operator to exist called a sequencer which can accept transaction requests and submit the calldata to Ethereum Mainnet, but do the computation on Optimism Mainnet. There is an idea of a fault proof which means you can verify that the computation done on Optimism Mainnet followed the exact rules of the EVM, and you can prove this on Ethereum Mainnet. Our fault proof codebase, cannon, was built by another jailbreak legend (geohot) precisely with the goal of running Ethereum's battle-tested code and minimize the chances of bugs like this. It's some really cool stuff. If you're into compilers, VMs, and blockchains alike, check it out! [2]

The protocol is still in active development, it is not done yet, and that's exactly why we set up this bug bounty program. We think bug bounties matter, a lot, and we're proud to now become the record holders of the largest bug bounty payout in history, however we hope to very quickly be beaten by someone else. Developers like saurik, who we've gotten to know recently, are super important for this ecosystem to thrive. Building this stuff is hard, and we want the best hackers in the world to get rich breaking these protocols because if we succeed in this industry, this technology will be the backbone of the world's financial infrastructure — it needs to be secure. Everything we write is also MIT licensed and developed completely in the open.

Very happy to answer any questions, I'll check this thread for the rest of the day — AMA :)

Also, we are hiring! [3]

[1] https://optimismpbc.medium.com/disclosure-fixing-a-critical-... [2] https://github.com/ethereum-optimism/cannon/ [3] https://boards.greenhouse.io/optimism

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#62
post #5

This is a concerning aspect of Ethereum's strategy to push scaling to layer-2 networks: Ethereum is a heavily audited and tested protocol that runs an extremely decentralized network of diverse clients. L2s can be...an AWS instance running arbitrary buggy code. Much of the confidence in the "base layer" that people using Ethereum currently experience will be significantly undermined if mundane transactions wend in an…

> extremely decentralized network

Can you provide source for this claim? I thought that infura was the dominant infrastructure provider for eth and if it gets taken down, a majority of the apps goes down too.

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an issue with all cryptocurrency infrastructure though: projects need to be proven to demonstrate robust value and it's probably one of the most adversarial spaces in software. History has shown that hacks and exploits of projects hurt the price of the native taken but do not really damage the long-term earned trust.

Exactly this, it's a very adversarial environment with huge stakes for those that can exploit it. Even projects that have been around for months, years can get exploited which is why I'd recommend waiting a long time before putting non-trivial amounts into any smart contract or crypto related projects. That's also a big plus for Bitcoin, because it's been around the longest and because it's so much simpler than more…

Are the stakes that huge for potential exploiters? It seems that exploits can write off a bunch of value from the exploited but, at least for big and quickly noticed exploits, it is hard to launder the gains into the ‘legitimate’ part of the ecosystem with big exchanges and suchlike.

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#64
post #5

This is a concerning aspect of Ethereum's strategy to push scaling to layer-2 networks: Ethereum is a heavily audited and tested protocol that runs an extremely decentralized network of diverse clients. L2s can be...an AWS instance running arbitrary buggy code. Much of the confidence in the "base layer" that people using Ethereum currently experience will be significantly undermined if mundane transactions wend in an…

> extremely decentralized network Can you provide source for this claim? I thought that infura was the dominant infrastructure provider for eth and if it gets taken down, a majority of the apps goes down too.

Infura already went down several times and nothing happened. Metamask users can easily switch to other rpc providers (including their own nodes).

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this, it's a very adversarial environment with huge stakes for those that can exploit it. Even projects that have been around for months, years can get exploited which is why I'd recommend waiting a long time before putting non-trivial amounts into any smart contract or crypto related projects. That's also a big plus for Bitcoin, because it's been around the longest and because it's so much simpler than more…

Are the stakes that huge for potential exploiters? It seems that exploits can write off a bunch of value from the exploited but, at least for big and quickly noticed exploits, it is hard to launder the gains into the ‘legitimate’ part of the ecosystem with big exchanges and suchlike.

I think last year alone had more than a billion dollars worth of crypto hacked on defi, there's some trackers out there [1]. On one hand, you have amateurs that leave their private keys on cloud services and try to cash out while living in a place like NYC, on the other hand, you have people who know what they are doing or perhaps live in places that actively encourage those activities [2].

1: https://cryptosec.info/defi-hacks/

2: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59990477

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#66
post #28
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! I got burned by Optimism in another way. They tell you to point your applications at etherscan.io for transaction data/history, but then, on November 11 last year, the pushed an update that deletes all transaction history up to that point, which you need for taxes! They swore they'd have the history restored on Etherscan by Nov 18th, but they still haven't. Only recently they pushed a workaround that lets you do…

Let this be a lesson: Maintain local self-hosted copies of any necessary data, don’t rely on third-parties maintaining it and keeping it available. Should be standard practice for anyone doing anything serious with cryptocurrencies but unfortunately users seem complacent enough that easily accessible tooling is still lacking in many places and you may have to DIY scripts for some parts. Your situation is unfortunate…

Okay... in a sense, yes, in hindsight, I should have planned for this. But there are a number of reasons I think this kind of response is too dismissive.

First of all, no matter how well you prepare, there is always going to be one level higher of system failure that you "should have planned for". In the npm-Linux-box-borking debacle, there were people insisting you should never have run npm except on fully disposable hardware with an instantly replaceable dev environment (which is the only thing that would have let you shrug it off).[B]

Got mugged walking home? Should have taken a safer route. Took a safe route? Should have walked with a friend. Still got mugged? Should have walked with two friends. For all n, should have walked with n+1 friends.

Second, it's painting with a tad broad of a brush to call me complacent on crypto. I've filed crypto taxes since 2017 and kept cost basis records from years before. I'm aware systems fail and (outside of this) have set appropriate backups and cached critical transactions to spreadhseets. Even here, even with nothing done by the Optimism team to correct their mistake, I'm not actually doomed, as I can file taxes based on an input-output analysis of my Optimism transactions as a good enough first pass, and correct later. The issue is unnecessary convenience.

In fact, as things stand today, I'm in exactly the "safe" position you thought I was -- "oh, it's there, you just have to query right". Indeed I do! Now that I've pulled the tx data from the alternate sources, I "just" have to yak-shave out a meaningful read of all the transactions. (Update: per sibling, you can download the transactions from a different tab but you still have to do some transformation.) But none of that takes away from the point that this is huge, avoidable inconvenience and flaky community relations.

Remember, even if I had cached them, I'd still be stuck having to manually import them into my crypto tax software, which is a failure from usability.

Third, there are reasons to expect optimistic.etherscan.io as a reliable source to point to.

1) When you set up e.g. Metamask, the Optimism site gives you exactly one URL to point to, with no alternatives or warning that one day it might be missing history. [A] The very fact that Metamask equates "nothing from that url" with "no transactions" means they were treating it as mission-critical.

2) The entire ETH community outside of Optimism relies upon etherscan.io for most of their own tooling ethereum projects. All sources for ETH projects say to connect there, as if it's inconceivable that there could be an outage or need for some fallback.

3) It would have been trivial to keep the transaction history up. There was already a server somewhere (etherscan-owned or otherwise) serving transaction history. All they had to do was configure it to be able to check transactions for being from before that switchover, and ping that (static) DB for a subset of them.

(Remember, this isn't, at least so far, an issue of cost: they do plan to get optimistic.etherscan.io back up as a reliable endpoint for the pre-upgrade txns, they just didn't think to upgrade a way that would facilitate such queries of already-existing immutable data.)

And, for the final kicker.

4) Optimism maintainers themselves didn't even think to locally cache all the transactions they'd need! (As in the one mentioned who only logged a proper subset of taxable events.) If the very people who live and breathe this stuff overlooked it, I think I can be forgiven for overlooking it, as they expect even casual users to join.

[A] https://metamask.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/4403700785691...

[B] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16438630

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#67
post #56
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

saurik is pretty famous, I would estimate that most serious players in this space know the money is here. What is good about this post and the fact it's on top of HN is that maybe the average HN reader will be curious and help shift the crypto narrative on HN from negativity to at least neutrality.

But the negativity is well deserved Look at how the crypto-sphere reacted at FEDs returning "stolen" coins to Bitfinex like all praise and "justice served". Only HNers actually raised "hey guys why do you even crypto if FEDs will decide who owns what". It all ends up being Government-coin and they like it.

To me, this is Exhibit A of the oddly incoherent nature of discussions that appear here. What you wrote is a random mixture of ideology, misinterpretation of what happened, and the wrong forum for it.

Where would one even start?

US Govt hasn't returned the bitcoin to Bitfinex. Bitfinex has stated they would apply for getting it returned. This is the process these things take. All that has occurred is a DOJ/FBI seizure, indictment and arrest. I don't know what reaction you referring to and your sentences are ideological hyperbole that have nothing to do with the technology. This is a technology and industry forum. The technology allows any possessor of the private key to assume control over the entries in that private key.

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The discussion here used to be way more thoughtful, it's only been bad the last year or so. I think the degradation of crypto discourse here was mostly a knee-jerk reaction to NFTs. "NFTs are stupid, so all crypto is stupid, because NFTs are crypto" - that was likely the thought process behind all the toxicity seen here.

I would disagree, in my experience HN has been pretty anti-crypto for a long time, starting with Bitcoin's announcement thread [1]. Personally, I think people are just tired, as a proponent I'm tired of arguing the same stuff over and over again, I can imagine the other side of that too. At this point, time will decide who's right and wrong, I think that what anyone of us thinks doesn't really matter in the grand sch…

Yeah I'm an opponent and I feel the same. The talking points have been exhausted half a decade ago. On top of that as cryptocurrencies get more and more mainstream we have to deal with less sophisticated people who make it very hard to have a decent discussion in the first place, because you basically have to start by taking 20 minutes to explain to them what the basics even are.

NFTs are really pushing this situation to the extreme. Between the NFT enthusiast who seem to think the technology is literal magic who can do anything you want it to and "haters" who will say stuff like "NFTs are just URLs of JPEG" which is absurd oversimplification and completely misses the point.

That being said I would argue that the fact that the discussion is not advancing and that we're left with "monkey jpegs" is to be blamed entirely on the cryptopeople who clearly fail entirely to deliver anything new. The killer "crypto app" has been a couple of years away since 2015 at least. The tech keeps getting more complicated as an attempt to address the fundamentals shortcomings of the blockchain, but it still fails entirely at being anything more than a vehicle for wild speculation.

The fundamental reality is that basically nobody would be using any of this if they didn't think it was going to make them rich. That was true five years ago, it's true now and I think it's going to remain true for the foreseeable future.

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#69
post #61

Hey! Optimism's head of engineering here! We're super greatful to saurik for writing up such a great analysis of what he found. If you want to hear some of our key takeaways as the maintainers of the network, you can check out our disclosure post here [1]. If you're wondering WTF Optimism is... we are building an optimistic rollup on top of ethereum. The basic idea is to de-couple blockchain computation from data ava…

Your first link is broken.

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#70
post #69
post #61

Hey! Optimism's head of engineering here! We're super greatful to saurik for writing up such a great analysis of what he found. If you want to hear some of our key takeaways as the maintainers of the network, you can check out our disclosure post here [1]. If you're wondering WTF Optimism is... we are building an optimistic rollup on top of ethereum. The basic idea is to de-couple blockchain computation from data ava…

Your first link is broken.

Fixed, sorry
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