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The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

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Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#61
post #57
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody took away your choice. You just need to implement/find SSL for that older device.

I think you've got something mixed up here, it's not that more effort is required by either party, it's just NOT to block port 80, and NOT write explicit redirect rules, and poof, stuff works.

Some other party then has the extra effort of security, privacy, etc. support for those using 80 with modern computers and browsers...

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#62
post #9

> For most typewriters, restoration is only a matter of taking the time to do it. There’s no complex skills or tools involved. Even the most difficult operations could be learned alone, by simple trial and error. What. Let's say an internal piece failed because of mechanical stress caused by lack of lubrication or a jammed foreign object. How do you figure out "by simple trial and error" which piece failed, why it fa…

> no mention of why you'd want to do this In the introduction, OP says: "Well, given how we use the resources of our planet, the question is not if we could or not. We need to do it, no matter what." I tend to believe he is right about that.

It would be interesting to see some actual calculations around this. It would have to take into account, for example, that we can do (some arbitrarily huge number) more calculations with N grams of rare materials than we could back in the day. If that trend continues for at least another while, investing in a 50-year computer is basically saying we have absolutely no need for that extra computing power.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#63
post #9

> For most typewriters, restoration is only a matter of taking the time to do it. There’s no complex skills or tools involved. Even the most difficult operations could be learned alone, by simple trial and error. What. Let's say an internal piece failed because of mechanical stress caused by lack of lubrication or a jammed foreign object. How do you figure out "by simple trial and error" which piece failed, why it fa…

> Why it failed. Out of scope. You just want to get it working again and don't care if you have to replace the same piece in another 5 years. Maybe that is not a "proper" repair, but you can do it yourself. > which piece failed Everything is large enough and mechanical failures are obvious enough that you see what is broken (maybe that part that is literally broken into pieces).

If you don't understand why it failed, you might do more damage with your repair, or you might have to replace it again in a week, rather than five years.

As for being "obvious", I don't understand that sentiment. A broken piece pretty much by definition does not look the way it should, so unless you know the exact design of every piece by heart before starting the repair you're not going to automatically know what it's supposed to look like, in the general case.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#64
Sounds like a fun project. I'll dump assorted thoughts on the topic too:

- Building a laptop (and not a desktop/workstation computer, or a blade/server hardware) makes the task much more difficult than it has to be.

- Even modern Debian is supposed to run on Pentium 1, so that's hardware from 25+ years ago (I suspect the main memory would be a bottleneck though). But now that Moore's law doesn't seem to apply anymore, and unless there will be some unexpected breakthroughs, at least the same 25 years seem fairly easy.

- As anecdata, I've built a computer about a decade ago (had no hardware issues at all since), and another one a couple years ago -- and their specifications are very similar.

- I guess replacement parts may be more of an issue: with hardware interfaces changing, it becomes quite a bit harder to find older ones, just as with any appliances.

- As for interfaces for talking to the outside world, I think so far they change (with breaking compatibility) slower than internal ones, though it can be an issue too. Maybe can be mitigated with analog interfaces where applicable, open hardware and GPIO pins for future hacking, and general attempts to keep compatibility. And adapters, of course.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#65
post #61
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've got something mixed up here, it's not that more effort is required by either party, it's just NOT to block port 80, and NOT write explicit redirect rules, and poof, stuff works.

Some other party then has the extra effort of security, privacy, etc. support for those using 80 with modern computers and browsers...

I don't see how, moderns browsers are free to suggest https, users are free to use it, network admins are free to require it

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#66
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why it failed. Out of scope. You just want to get it working again and don't care if you have to replace the same piece in another 5 years. Maybe that is not a "proper" repair, but you can do it yourself. > which piece failed Everything is large enough and mechanical failures are obvious enough that you see what is broken (maybe that part that is literally broken into pieces).

If you don't understand why it failed, you might do more damage with your repair, or you might have to replace it again in a week, rather than five years. As for being "obvious", I don't understand that sentiment. A broken piece pretty much by definition does not look the way it should, so unless you know the exact design of every piece by heart before starting the repair you're not going to automatically know what i…

> might ... general case....

Or it might not and we are talking about a very concrete case. The point is that everything is "large", low-tech and lots of stuff works the same. So replacement parts are fairly easy to get and easy to install. No soldering, no dexterity, no "exact design of every piece" required.

Compare that to fixing a smartphone, where you might need special tools to even open the device.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#67
post #38
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a reason to read Wikipedia via https: ISP can otherwise inject ads or even change the page. This has actually happened.

That's not a good reason to take away my choice, and rob me of the opportunity to access this information on an older device if I wanted to.

You may not need that extra protection (now), but society does.

It’s just like all the other kinds of safety measures we expect, such as seat belts, regulations w.r.t. food safety, fire protection, standards for tool safety, etc.

Nothing of that is needed, until you need it (I’ve never needed seat belts or airbags, for example, but can understand society requiring them)

If the industry hadn’t forced the world to https, I think governments would have.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#68
post #5

Right now, I don’t see how a general purpose computer could last 50 years. The article refers to it being modular, but you’d have to replace so many parts… would it still be the same computer?

I have an Amiga 1200 that is about 25 years old. With some expansions over the years I can do most stuff that I've been doing daily since the mid 90s. Replacement caps, accelerator board and a scan doubler for modern-ish displays (DVI / VGA work fine).

I also own a Core 2 Quad with maxed ram (8gb) that is about 15 years old and it can handle a modern Linux distro quite well. I've added USB 3.0, card readers and I bought a cheap AMD workstation GPU and stuff works ok. If the hardware doesn't fail it probably be okay for another 10 years. If I ran a BSD on there it would last longer.

What normally causes me to upgrade machines are new games and/or heavy weight software stacks and IDEs that eat ram and CPU time.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#69
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got to say you're spot on. Keeping things working is no challenge looks at his commodores . Keeping them relevant is more of a challenge, this is one reason I hate to see people forcing redirects to HTTPS, it's just great and dandy that modern browsers suggest this to users (as long as they don't force), but for vast vast amounts of information, in the free world, you shouldn't force people into always-encrypted. T…

There is one reason I can think of for encrypting websites, it tells you the information is coming from where you expect and not an interloper. I agree its worth thinking about about serviceability and longevity but I can't help feeling like it would be like worrying about keeping a PDP 11 running for fifty years.

General Electric is actually commited to run PDP-11 for another 30 years, until 2050.

And it’s already 52 years old, today. Seems like solved problem.

https://m.slashdot.org/story/187671

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#70
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got to say you're spot on. Keeping things working is no challenge looks at his commodores . Keeping them relevant is more of a challenge, this is one reason I hate to see people forcing redirects to HTTPS, it's just great and dandy that modern browsers suggest this to users (as long as they don't force), but for vast vast amounts of information, in the free world, you shouldn't force people into always-encrypted. T…

There is one reason I can think of for encrypting websites, it tells you the information is coming from where you expect and not an interloper. I agree its worth thinking about about serviceability and longevity but I can't help feeling like it would be like worrying about keeping a PDP 11 running for fifty years.

This purpose could be accomplished with a cryptographic signature of the plain text. Thin clients would have the option to just take the Internet's word for the provenance of the data, any system capable of running encryption algorithms can confirm they received the exact bytes the author intended.

This would be an example of progressive enhancement, which has fallen out of favor.

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