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The FSF’s relationship with firmware is harmful to free software users

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Re: The FSF’s relationship with firmware is harmful to free software users

#61
post #59

About the microcode: the argument is basically "It is good nonfree software, just give up and accept it." Sorry? This is FSF. And no, it is not always good: https://www.theregister.com/2018/08/21/intel_cpu_patch_licen... , and when people don't accept it, https://www.theregister.com/2018/08/23/intel_microcode_licen... . If a majority of intel's customers said: sorry, we'll find other solutions rather than accepting y…

> It is good nonfree software, just give up and accept it.

You already accepted it when you bought the CPU and it came with the base version. Your choices are to install a bugfix, or not. The FSF advocates for not installing the bugfix, or even informing users of the possibility of doing so. That is utterly illogical. There is no reason whatsoever to run broken proprietary software over fixed proprietary software.

Re: The FSF’s relationship with firmware is harmful to free software users

#62
post #5

I think the ideology of the FSF is a perfectly fine one. It's the hardware vendors that insist on binary blobs that are the problem here. Nobody produces truly free consumer hardware and nobody has produced any for years now. Everything is hidden away because of fears of patent lawsuits and other people copying this One Neat Trick when initializing the devices. Intel would lose very little if it published the source…

At this point, I think that's become a cop-out on their part. If they really want to make their vision of truly open hardware a reality, they need to roll up their sleeves and make it happen.

Mostly open (due to reverse-engineering) FPGAs are a thing, SkyWater is a thing, RISC-V is a thing. Take one of the open source RISC-V designs, design and build a test system using an FPGA[1] (or more than one... depending on what is needed) so you've got something to put on a board, once the design is validated use SkyWater to produce a small run of actual chips to replace the (proprietary) FPGA(s) and produce a 100% open CPU etc. as needed.[2] Sure, performance will be dismal compared to the latest silicon from Apple/Intel/AMD but it will be infinitely better than the Unobtainium processor / system they continue to fantasize about.[3] Yes, they'll probably have to jettison things like cellular and probably WiFi support due to IP issues. (note: that's not to say a wireless solution would be impossible, just that it wouldn't be one of the widely deployed or mainstream ones[4]) I understand that this isn't a simple task but how would it be more work than whining for decades with virtually nothing to show for it (given their requirements) on the hardware front?

Build a bad open source device that you can iterate on rather than complaining about for-profit companies behaving like for-profit companies. Right now open source hardware is decades behind and sitting around waiting doesn't seem to be accomplishing much.

[1] Better yet, design a fully open source FPGA of their own. Sure, it will be a couple/few decades behind the state of the art. But it would provide a starting point to build on.

[2] Of course this would take multiple iterations. One approach would be to see if Google would sponsor this as part of their partnership with SkyWater. Worst case, the FSF might have to do some light fundraising for the iterations.

[3] Again, it would likely be a couple of decades or more behind the state of the art. This too would provide a starting point. Then they could use the finished product as a fund raising aid (i.e. sell it) to fund future iterations.

[4] Open source SDR is a thing, for example.

Re: The FSF’s relationship with firmware is harmful to free software users

#63

Very few people or organizations willingly give up control. The whole reason of using copyright law to "enforce" freedom by preventing free software from becoming unfree was because of how much the current legal framework around imaginary property is stacked against a libre approach. So, it's a tough game to play, but FSF didn't achieve what it has thus far by being soft or compromising. Substantial change with hosti…

Since hardware vendors by and large ignore RYF certification and the FSF’s opinions in general, it’s hardly “yielding” for the FSF to change its policies if the existing policies are harmful to the free software community.

The people who are most vocal about FSF’s incorrect views on firmware are those who themselves are bringing free operating systems to new hardware, writing drivers, and reverse engineering hardware and firmware. They are not hostile parties—their contributions are among the most important to free software today, and their opinions should hold more weight.

Re: The FSF’s relationship with firmware is harmful to free software users

#64
post #5

I think the ideology of the FSF is a perfectly fine one. It's the hardware vendors that insist on binary blobs that are the problem here. Nobody produces truly free consumer hardware and nobody has produced any for years now. Everything is hidden away because of fears of patent lawsuits and other people copying this One Neat Trick when initializing the devices. Intel would lose very little if it published the source…

DRM garbage also adds to the incentives of using blob firmware.

For example for GPUs it goes a bit like this:

You need to support HDCP? Use a blob. You want to have a separate FOSS firmware without HDCP? An extra expense that bean counters won't like.

Re: The FSF’s relationship with firmware is harmful to free software users

#65
Is RYF certification a significant market force among users who want more open devices? I don't really follow it closely enough to know, but I checked in on the Librem 5 project periodically and this is the first I heard about RYF certification for the project, or the implication that it would be a significant driver of customer behavior. Is my outsiders impression of this niche incorrect?

Re: The FSF’s relationship with firmware is harmful to free software users

#66
FSF's hardline attitude has always rubbed me the wrong way. I respect and support their goals but at the end of the day software should respect the needs and desires of their users

I saw this on the nonguix repo for all non free software for guix

> Please do NOT promote this repository on any official Guix communication channels, such as their mailing lists or IRC channel, even in response to support requests! This is to show respect for the Guix project’s strict policy against recommending nonfree software, and to avoid any unnecessary hostility.

To do my job and boot my laptop nonguix is required but not even allowed to talk about it with the OS it intends to support, is not something I can agree with

I think the above is the type of side-effects seen with a hardline policy of the FSF. Obviously I'm not the target of this type of policy, but I still feel more good can be done in the long run with a little compromise to the realities of using a computer today

Re: The FSF’s relationship with firmware is harmful to free software users

#67
post #59

About the microcode: the argument is basically "It is good nonfree software, just give up and accept it." Sorry? This is FSF. And no, it is not always good: https://www.theregister.com/2018/08/21/intel_cpu_patch_licen... , and when people don't accept it, https://www.theregister.com/2018/08/23/intel_microcode_licen... . If a majority of intel's customers said: sorry, we'll find other solutions rather than accepting y…

> It is good nonfree software, just give up and accept it. You already accepted it when you bought the CPU and it came with the base version. Your choices are to install a bugfix, or not. The FSF advocates for not installing the bugfix, or even informing users of the possibility of doing so. That is utterly illogical. There is no reason whatsoever to run broken proprietary software over fixed proprietary software.

> You already accepted it when you bought the CPU and it came with the base version.

No, that is a version you can't physically modify. The other version is one you can't modify because of it's license and signature verification. You are simply ignoring important differences, like saying an elevator is no different than a flight of stairs, they both get you up, and anyone who avoids elevators must be an idiot.

Re: The FSF’s relationship with firmware is harmful to free software users

#68
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is good nonfree software, just give up and accept it. You already accepted it when you bought the CPU and it came with the base version. Your choices are to install a bugfix, or not. The FSF advocates for not installing the bugfix, or even informing users of the possibility of doing so. That is utterly illogical. There is no reason whatsoever to run broken proprietary software over fixed proprietary software.

> You already accepted it when you bought the CPU and it came with the base version. No, that is a version you can't physically modify. The other version is one you can't modify because of it's license and signature verification. You are simply ignoring important differences, like saying an elevator is no different than a flight of stairs, they both get you up, and anyone who avoids elevators must be an idiot.

... but you can modify the base version. That's how microcode updates work, they patch it (via a patch register CAM). Are you trying to argue that the physical mechanism used for patching matters? That's an implementation detail, it has nothing to do with freedom.

Your CPU comes with patchable proprietary software. Period.

Re: The FSF’s relationship with firmware is harmful to free software users

#69

Is RYF certification a significant market force among users who want more open devices? I don't really follow it closely enough to know, but I checked in on the Librem 5 project periodically and this is the first I heard about RYF certification for the project, or the implication that it would be a significant driver of customer behavior. Is my outsiders impression of this niche incorrect?

Personally, I'd love to have a certified device. I'd like to support the cause because I fear my devices can became as locked down as smartphones and video game consoles.

People may mock now, but the trend with regard to DRM, IME and others make me consider "the right to read" as not mere fiction

Re: The FSF’s relationship with firmware is harmful to free software users

#70

FSF's hardline attitude has always rubbed me the wrong way. I respect and support their goals but at the end of the day software should respect the needs and desires of their users I saw this on the nonguix repo for all non free software for guix > Please do NOT promote this repository on any official Guix communication channels, such as their mailing lists or IRC channel, even in response to support requests! This i…

I understand your position, but it would be better if the compromise was made by "the other side".
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