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Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

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Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#61

Post by heavyset_go »

version_five wrote: post #18

If I understand correctly, israel mandates a third shot (to do normal stuff), as do many places in north america, either now or soon. And I can only imagine many people would be happy to mandate a fourth as soon as possible. What I find most frustrating is that politicians are happy to make these mandates live, during an ongoing situation where we actually don't know a lot about how effective things are (and in the c…

> I have my three shots, but I'm terrified now that the precident is set that a government can force me to take something that I might not want to.

That precedent was already set by the Supreme Court in Jacobson v. Massachusetts in 1905.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#62

Post by version_five »

twofornone wrote: post #24

Record cases across the planet regardless of vaccination rates...how much longer until official sources are willing to acknowledge that these vaccines are not nearly as effective as claimed? How long before official sources acknowledge that breakthrough cases are probably drastically underreported? I can't be the only one surrounded by fully vaccinated individuals testing positive. Its happening far too often for me…

And you can see how you get treated if you question today's narrative. I agree with you, and I think most people are starting to realize that the vaccines didnt live up to their initial promise, but try and question it anywhere and you have people coming out of the woodwork telling you we've always been at war with eastasia and that nobody expected vaccines to do anything other than "limit severe infection"

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#63

Post by nradov »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #27
top_post wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't for the life of me understand why your last statement isn't what the world is driving for at the moment. mRNA vaccines are easily(-ish) updated, so punch out an Omicron specific dose and get on with the regular single/dual (if needed) regime. It seems strange we'd opt for 3-4-5 shots given the benefit of mRNA was its ease of creation and modification.

A third shot showed large antibody increases. I haven't seen a fourth shot being suggested. Here it was being studied. Omicron specific vaccines are being worked on and expected to arrive in a few months.

Antibody levels are transient and not very important. What matters over the long term is cellular immunity. We're just chasing our tails by focusing on antibody levels.

https://youtu.be/GklHGYY8vN8

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#65

Post by timr »

Daishiman wrote: post #29
version_five wrote: post #18

If I understand correctly, israel mandates a third shot (to do normal stuff), as do many places in north america, either now or soon. And I can only imagine many people would be happy to mandate a fourth as soon as possible. What I find most frustrating is that politicians are happy to make these mandates live, during an ongoing situation where we actually don't know a lot about how effective things are (and in the c…

> And I can only imagine many people would be happy to mandate a fourth as soon as possible. I'm sorry but I'm not understanding the logic. The booster was recommended after several rounds of research across multiple countries suggested it was a good idea, with Israel doing some of the first testing and reaching the conclusion that it was worthwhile (and it was, by a substantial margin). Their research is now indicat…

> I'm sorry but I'm not understanding the logic. The booster was recommended after several rounds of research across multiple countries suggested it was a good idea, with Israel doing some of the first testing and reaching the conclusion that it was worthwhile (and it was, by a substantial margin).

You are misinformed. There is a paucity of data supporting boosters, what little exists is for people over 65 (to be fair, the argument in support of boosters seems robust for this group), and the FDA and CDC advisory committees both recommended against boosting of younger populations. They were bypassed. Two long-time FDA scientists resigned over the issue:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/13/health/boosters-not-needed-la...

They wrote a scathing review of the situation in the Lancet:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

Paul Offit (inventor of the Rotavirus vaccine, member of CDC ACIP, and vaccine advocate) is on the record saying that he doesn't advise his own 20-something son to get a booster dose:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/01/should-te...

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/12/omicron-dr-paul-offi...

The headlong rush toward boosters in all age groups is simply not supported by evidence.

(edit: I used the word "mandatory" above; this was a mistake in my own wordering, and I removed it. CDC ACIP recommended that older populations should get a booster, but did not do this for those under 50. I incorrectly summarized this as "recommended against mandatory boosters".)

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#66

Post by FridayoLeary »

Daishiman wrote: post #32
MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #6

I am living in Israel, i doubt that it is possible to state anything definitively on the subject: regulations and decissions are being changed on a daily basis. I am not a healthcare specialist, however all this is giving the impression of being one big mess...

That's how science works: when the facts become updated you update your decisions. Israel has been among the most science-driven governments in Covid policy. I'm not really sure why your "impression" should be mentioned given that you expressly state that you're not a specialist.

I think you are sadly wrong. Corona policy in the early days quickly became inextricably enmeshed in political rivalries, electioneering and knee- jerk reactions. When you say "science driven" i think you really meant "stricter regulations". It is a fatal error to conflate the two.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#68

Post by Izkata »

FridayoLeary wrote: post #54
shock-value wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and in the case of the latest variant, we know they are not effective I assume you are talking about stopping spread, which could be accurate. I further assume you are not referring to reducing illness severity, because they obviously are effective at that. But that benefit extends beyond the individual insofar as it reduces strain on the overall healthcare system -- ensuring that even those who have injuries or il…

It's moving the goalpoasts. The reason the vaccine enjoyed so much initial support was because it was supposed to make covid go away. The politicians seem to think even though the reality has changed, support for the vaccine has remained constant.

> The reason the vaccine enjoyed so much initial support was because it was supposed to make covid go away.

Eh, not really. Even that didn't actually come from the vaccine trials; Pfizer and Moderna never tested for infection/transmission, and only made claims on symptoms/disease. Stopping infection/transmission just sorta popped out of politicians/media in early 2021, not actual research - that came a month or two later, and from what I remember the strongest claim was that it might help.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#69

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway984393 wrote: post #47
version_five wrote: post #18

If I understand correctly, israel mandates a third shot (to do normal stuff), as do many places in north america, either now or soon. And I can only imagine many people would be happy to mandate a fourth as soon as possible. What I find most frustrating is that politicians are happy to make these mandates live, during an ongoing situation where we actually don't know a lot about how effective things are (and in the c…

If they don't mandate, people will die. If they do mandate, potentially less people will die. By mandating before there's some kind of irrefutable proof that it'll help, they're saying that saving people's lives is worth any social or economic headache. Also: your government is, I take it, some form of representative democracy? Saying you don't trust the government is identical to saying you don't trust the people of…

[deleted]

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#70

Post by kyrra »

timr wrote: post #65
Daishiman wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I can only imagine many people would be happy to mandate a fourth as soon as possible. I'm sorry but I'm not understanding the logic. The booster was recommended after several rounds of research across multiple countries suggested it was a good idea, with Israel doing some of the first testing and reaching the conclusion that it was worthwhile (and it was, by a substantial margin). Their research is now indicat…

> I'm sorry but I'm not understanding the logic. The booster was recommended after several rounds of research across multiple countries suggested it was a good idea, with Israel doing some of the first testing and reaching the conclusion that it was worthwhile (and it was, by a substantial margin). You are misinformed. There is a paucity of data supporting boosters, what little exists is for people over 65 (to be fai…

And many (most?) of these policies ignore natural immunity that people are getting from catching COVID.
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