Earlier quoted context omitted.
In one of my current web-based projects I decided to experiment with magic links sent via email. They are pretty convenient (and secure enough) but turns out there's a problem with mobile email clients: they tend to open links in isolated embedded browsers and then forget the cookies. For most non-technical people this is a show stopper unfortunately. I then went with one-time 6-digit sign in codes that are emailed t…
You know that the opened token is linked to the initial client session. You can unblock that session and the user can proceed in the non-isolated browser. You have this workflow with codes anyway: the user must open an email then go back to the browser and type in the code. With the link you will save on the typing.
Entropy isn't sufficient to measure password strength
61–70 of 124 posts
Re: Entropy isn't sufficient to measure password strength
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
In one of my current web-based projects I decided to experiment with magic links sent via email. They are pretty convenient (and secure enough) but turns out there's a problem with mobile email clients: they tend to open links in isolated embedded browsers and then forget the cookies. For most non-technical people this is a show stopper unfortunately. I then went with one-time 6-digit sign in codes that are emailed t…
You know that the opened token is linked to the initial client session. You can unblock that session and the user can proceed in the non-isolated browser. You have this workflow with codes anyway: the user must open an email then go back to the browser and type in the code. With the link you will save on the typing.
P.S. Unless there are some security implications - need to think about it a bit more. Thanks!
Re: Entropy isn't sufficient to measure password strength
#63He seems to be saying, if your password selection strategy skews towards really weak passwords, and you measure the Shannon entropy of the distribution, it won't reveal that this is a bad strategy.
I don't know anyone who would actually do this and declare a win "because Shannon".
At best, it's mildy interesting that Shannon entropy on its own isn't going to give you a useful answer if you have a weak strategy.
Re: Entropy isn't sufficient to measure password strength
#64There's a bit of a logical flaw here in that the argument is made against average entropy of a set of passwords, rather than individual entropy of each chosen password. This is an argument I can't find anyone making: an aggregate average entropy of the set of all passwords you use is fine for password security, rather than the entropy of each individual password. As far as I can tell this seems to be a (possibly inte…
Individual passwords don’t have entropy.
A password of "aaaaaaa" will have a much lower entropy than "axipeY7".
What am I missing?
Re: Entropy isn't sufficient to measure password strength
#65When will we stop using passwords?! They are an elementary school kid “secret club” game taken way, way too far. They are totally broken. Nobody can come up with and remember good passwords. Nobody can store passwords securely. 100% busted. Instead of continuing to debate what makes a good password, we need to put our energy into better techniques altogether! No more shared secrets! Let’s talk about one-time codes, a…
Turns out passwords aren't great at most things but the alternatives often have big downsides.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/...
Re: Entropy isn't sufficient to measure password strength
#66Maybe I just don't have trendy-enough coworkers or friends...but I know of no one who actually analyzes password strength in terms of Shannon entropy. Cripes, the very first sentence of the Wikipedia page for Shannon entropy tells us that it's an average . Simple analogy - if the goal was to protect your house from a 9-foot-deep flood, would a dike with an average height of 10 feet do the job?
I've done a fair bit of research into this, and as far as I can tell, the entire internet does this thing you've never seen. For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Password_strength#Entropy_as_a... implies the use of Shannon entropy.
I won't tell you what decade it was, when I found that some "bright" user had picked his/her own office phone # (10 digits, 2 hyphens) to use as a "high security" password.
My own mental model - with a decent compression algorithm, and compression dictionary pre-loaded with popular passwords and personal information, how many bits would the specific password in question compress to? That also catches the clever folks who pick stuff like "abcdabcdabcdabcd" or "3.1415926535".
Re: Entropy isn't sufficient to measure password strength
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fundamentally is there any flaw with this method? Or a reason why it isn't better than general password approach?
It's vulnerable to the dictionary-based attacks that are very common.
Re: Entropy isn't sufficient to measure password strength
#68There's a bit of a logical flaw here in that the argument is made against average entropy of a set of passwords, rather than individual entropy of each chosen password. This is an argument I can't find anyone making: an aggregate average entropy of the set of all passwords you use is fine for password security, rather than the entropy of each individual password. As far as I can tell this seems to be a (possibly inte…
Entropy and min-entropy are properties of distributions , not of individual samples from those distributions. So there's no meaning to "the entropy of each chosen password".
In fact, the author's article makes this very point, which is why I pointed out the logical flaw in the thinking.
I'll reduce N to 6 for simplifying the author's absurd example but it can expand to any N.
If we take the argument to hold that you roll a random die of N length (6 in our case) and the upperbound represents one strong password, while all other values equate to the word "password", the flaw is in how this logic is applied.
Imagine this is our set of possible values:
password, password, password, password, password, hj5^@l2jl9GGk;Clkm(0]
It makes little difference if you look at this as either the bytes involved in the entire set, or the average of all passwords within the set, it's going to come out looking like you are secure.
This means what they're attacking is all permutations of the following set of characters:
a, C, d, h, j, k, l, m, o, p, r, s, w, G, 0, 2, 5, 9, ;, ], @, ^, (
What an attacker must know though, is the character set used within, as well as the length. This is the logical flaw the author made in their analysis. For an attacker, the entropy of an individual string is taken as possible character permutations required to discover the true password and NOT permutations of the entire strings themselves.
If you look at the values for each string presented in our set, what an attacker has to attack is:
a, d, o, p, r, s, w
C, h, j, k, l, m, G, 0, 2, 5, 9, ;, ], @, ^, (
But in order to attack these, they need to try the full set:
a-z
a-zA-Z0-9;:[]!@#$%^&*(){}
One of these will be VASTLY easier to break.
Re: Entropy isn't sufficient to measure password strength
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Individual passwords don’t have entropy.
You can calculate Shannon entropy of an individual password, as the number of bits per char. A password of "aaaaaaa" will have a much lower entropy than "axipeY7". What am I missing?
I guess it's not a useful measure of password strength, even if possible. Any password that doesn't repeat any letters will have identical entropy by this measure.
So 123456789 will be the same Shannon entropy as Ar4e$hUa^
Re: Entropy isn't sufficient to measure password strength
#70When will we stop using passwords?! They are an elementary school kid “secret club” game taken way, way too far. They are totally broken. Nobody can come up with and remember good passwords. Nobody can store passwords securely. 100% busted. Instead of continuing to debate what makes a good password, we need to put our energy into better techniques altogether! No more shared secrets! Let’s talk about one-time codes, a…
In one of my current web-based projects I decided to experiment with magic links sent via email. They are pretty convenient (and secure enough) but turns out there's a problem with mobile email clients: they tend to open links in isolated embedded browsers and then forget the cookies. For most non-technical people this is a show stopper unfortunately. I then went with one-time 6-digit sign in codes that are emailed t…
Additionally my security is now tried to the email I use which may be undesirable.
So I see why this exists, but please consider also supporting username+password at least until something else browser-integrated comes along.