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Jan 6 committee subpoenas Meta, Google, Reddit etc. after 'inadequate responses'

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Re: Jan 6 committee subpoenas Meta, Google, Reddit etc. after 'inadequate responses'

#61

I get some kind of sick satisfaction out of watching a certain small subset of HN lose their mind trying to square the circle when it comes to stuff like this. On one hand “this is government overreach!” (it’s not because the committee here is on a specific task to investigate a specific crime) and “free market!” and on the other hand “big social media companies are evil and decide what’s right and what’s wrong.” Nev…

if congress is investigating a 'crime' then it is overreach because that is not the responsibility of congress. congress has investigatory powers like the subpoena power in order to help it make decisions about passing law. it is not meant to use this power primarily to pursue individuals.

Re: Jan 6 committee subpoenas Meta, Google, Reddit etc. after 'inadequate responses'

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow... so you're saying our democracy could be overthrown if you, A) disrupt Congress and B) cause a day's worth of delays. Amazing stability of our government that.

I didn't say that at all. However, taking control of the government is exactly how coups are executed, please look into it if you haven't.

We have a chain of command in our government for when people die. First the President, then the Vice President, then the Speaker of the House, then the Secretaries in a predefined order, and so forth. Plus, the Secret Service (which protects the president) includes considerations for, say, Nuclear Bombing of the capitol and who would take over leadership if such a disaster should happen.

If the rioters had succeeded in murdering every single person in the capital building, there would have been a protocol in place with the leader already determined. The only way this would have been successful is if the rioters killed every single elected official and secretary in the building, followed by having the support of the Army. They were absolutely nowhere near that.

Re: Jan 6 committee subpoenas Meta, Google, Reddit etc. after 'inadequate responses'

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you haven’t seen much evidence then. https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/13/politics/oath-keepers-seditio...

In that case, I am still not convinced, because how many people have ever heard of the Oath Keepers? To me, from what I can tell, this means that there was a bunch of people protesting there, as was their legal right. A very small group had plans to break in, and unexpectedly succeeded in doing so. Everyone else then followed even though this hadn't been pre-planned. So, from Facebook's perspective, you would have to…

Literally none of this is about censorship. I know it’s inconvenient but you have to read the actual articles posted, not just the headlines.

I have heard of them and I am nowhere near those circles or even the news sites all that much. They are a rather infamous org (that’s not a good thing).

It sounds like you keep moving the goal posts (“I have not seen any evidence… ok I have seen the evidence but it’s not good enough evidence… ok there is evidence but it wasn’t enough people…”) so I am not going to keep replying but I urge you to read first, post second.

Re: Jan 6 committee subpoenas Meta, Google, Reddit etc. after 'inadequate responses'

#64
post #60

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Funny how you think this is a political theater but you do not acknowledge the anger stroking speeches from Trump and appearances of Republican senators on Fox news claiming widespread election fraud and forcing Pence and congress in not certifying election as not a serious matter.

I can say that would be a serious matter, but the hype about how it was going to kill our democracy because of some rioters is overblown nonsense.

Re: Jan 6 committee subpoenas Meta, Google, Reddit etc. after 'inadequate responses'

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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> Remind me what the Secret Service exists for again, Protecting the president. The secret service does not protect senators > and who got the lawmakers out of there before the rioters came. Capitol Hill police I believe. > Maybe Democracy would have been closer to dying I’m pretty sure I explicitly said that wasn’t on the table. My point was that the rioters got very close. That is, one door away, then lured to othe…

Well, then, it would have been a massacre, but democracy still wouldn't have died. We have a chain of command that has been clearly defined - President, then Vice President, then Speaker of the House, then all of the Secretaries in a specific order, and so on.

Unless they managed to get the Army, or the Nuclear Codes, or something greater than just controlling a building, they would have needed to kill the President, the Vice President, and every single House and Senate member (including those not in the building) and then get control of the Army or Popular Support or something massive to have a shot. I don't think they were anywhere close with that.

Re: Jan 6 committee subpoenas Meta, Google, Reddit etc. after 'inadequate responses'

#66

Quoted post unavailable.

I think it's worth mentioning that the executive branch of the US government, including the president of the US, were supporting the rioters. In my opinion, this is part of the reason why the capital was not more secure.

It may be more difficult for another country, like England, to get that kind of support from the executive branch of the US government.

Re: Jan 6 committee subpoenas Meta, Google, Reddit etc. after 'inadequate responses'

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> Remind me what the Secret Service exists for again, Protecting the president. The secret service does not protect senators > and who got the lawmakers out of there before the rioters came. Capitol Hill police I believe. > Maybe Democracy would have been closer to dying I’m pretty sure I explicitly said that wasn’t on the table. My point was that the rioters got very close. That is, one door away, then lured to othe…

Realistically what would have happened is many rioters en masse would have been killed by security forces which would have become a big political issue.

Re: Jan 6 committee subpoenas Meta, Google, Reddit etc. after 'inadequate responses'

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nearly Died" yes, because the leadership guiding the riot wasn't particularly competent. If they had control of more institutions, it would likely have been more successful. When saying "any other show of power other than that they managed to break through a few weakly-secured doors" you downplay the fact they the rioters interrupted a session of Congress and succeeded in their purpose of delaying the certification…

Wow... so you're saying our democracy could be overthrown if you, A) disrupt Congress and B) cause a day's worth of delays. Amazing stability of our government that.

Kind of, yes. The people voted democratically to elect Joe Biden as President in November. The Constitution and laws say that he becomes President Elect on Jan 6. That's the law. People vote -> President elect on Jan 6, President on Jan 20.

What happened on Jan 6 was that the transition of power was, for a number of hours, prevented through violent means. Thank God two things happened on Jan 6: (1) Mike Pence refused to leave the Capitol and (2) Mitch McConnell refused to entertain the 10 objections that they wanted (which would have delayed proceedings for at least 20 hours). If either of those two things happened, we'd be in a political situation uncovered by the Constitution and law. That's when things get bad, because either side is just making things up at that point. It becomes a battle of wills and political power; whoever has the most power to reify their will, wins.

The plan on Jan 6 was to delay certification as long as possible, because there was a pressure campaign ongoing in which states were being pressured to "decertify" their votes, and Pence was being pressured to consider alternate slates of electors for Trump.

I think everyone needs to start getting clear on the facts here:

(1) Jan 6 was about stopping Biden from being certified as President Elect by any means, because that's a write only operation. There's no undoing that. Once he is certified by the House, Senate, and VP, the deal is done. Not even the Supreme Court can overturn that: separation of powers and all.

(2) The legal way to do that was spelled out in the Eastman Memo [1]: It argued Pence could just unilaterally refuse to consider slates of electors and cause a contested election, which favored the Republicans electorally. But Pence would not go along with this plan.

(3) Pence was aware of fraudulent certificates of the vote that had been submitted by various states, which purported to be legitimate votes for Trump. Pence could not go along with accepting those without a pretextual reason given by the states themselves. This was the last piece of the plan which was, supposedly according to Trump's lawyer, coming together at the last minute while the Capitol attack was ongoing.

Think of it this way: On Jan 6 the situation was that every state had certified their votes, Trump lost 62/63 court cases and the Supreme Court refused to hear the case, the AG had said he found no fraud. There was no pretext for Pence to accept the alternative electors.

However, that could have changed very quickly had the pressure campaign continued. If Pence had left the Capitol on Jan 6, then the joint session would not have reconvened for several days while the Capitol was secured (actually the Capitol was correctly deemed insecure by Secret Service the day of Jan 6, so there's as open question as to why Pence was there in the first place). At this time, there was a pressure campaign going on to get one or more states to "Decertify" their certificate of the vote. Had one or more states done so, it would be very easy to see how this would have ended up at a contested election where Republicans would have all the votes needed to install Trump as President.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastman_memos

Re: Jan 6 committee subpoenas Meta, Google, Reddit etc. after 'inadequate responses'

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remind me what the Secret Service exists for again, Protecting the president. The secret service does not protect senators > and who got the lawmakers out of there before the rioters came. Capitol Hill police I believe. > Maybe Democracy would have been closer to dying I’m pretty sure I explicitly said that wasn’t on the table. My point was that the rioters got very close. That is, one door away, then lured to othe…

Well, then, it would have been a massacre, but democracy still wouldn't have died. We have a chain of command that has been clearly defined - President, then Vice President, then Speaker of the House, then all of the Secretaries in a specific order, and so on. Unless they managed to get the Army, or the Nuclear Codes, or something greater than just controlling a building, they would have needed to kill the President,…

You keep framing this as either democracy dies or it’s a nonissue.

Personally I think a mob massacre of political leaders is bad on its own. Ymmv.

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