Google hired union-busting consultants to convince employees “unions suck” • Hacker News Board

Re: Google hired union-busting consultants to convince employees “unions suck”

#61

Post by __float » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

fallingknife wrote: post #40

If I were to join a union it would have to have the following: 1. No protection for incompetent people 2. No seniority based pay or privileges 3. Narrow focus on comp and quality of life Any of these would be a deal breaker for me. And I just don't see it happening. The people who seem to be into unions are the type of people that can't STFU about politics at the office. And if I hear one word about pronouns instead…

Who decides who is "incompetent"? What do pronouns have to do with anything?

I don't really see how this is related to the post.

Re: Google hired union-busting consultants to convince employees “unions suck”

#62

Post by lovich » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

gunapologist99 wrote: post #55

At one place I worked, I discovered that an employee had intentionally broken a machine that resulted in more than $8m in losses, but because of union negotiations, no one would do anything about it. At a different company, a union worker actually aimed a forklift at me, apparently because I was in IT. Unions historically served an important role, but they're an anachronism in the U.S. -- especially for coders at Goo…

I’m willing to be convinced here but how does 2 shitty people convince you that unions are an anachronism, especially when we are in the middle of an effective nationwide labor revolt over how shitty workers have been paid and treated for years?

Re: Google hired union-busting consultants to convince employees “unions suck”

#63

Post by kubb » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

lbriner wrote: post #32

0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #12

Having worked for both union and non-union employers - it's a mixed bag. Unions have advantages and disadvantages. They are great for worker representation - but that's a double-edged sword. Ideally, unions protects worker's interests. In practice, they often lead to abuse, stagnation and corruption. I've personally witnessed union employees who contributed nothing for years, get perpetually shifted from team to team…

Agree and this depends on the union also. The RMT in the UK is famously militant. When a new General Secretary was voted in a few years ago (before the current one I think), he didn't promise to "represent his members" but instead promised "that the RMT would remain militant", which doesn't sound great. Another railway union, the TSSA had a generally "no strike" policy but would still provide support for any disagree…

Everyone could get a better comp and work conditions but noo, that one lazy guy won't be fired, we can't have that!

Re: Google hired union-busting consultants to convince employees “unions suck”

#64

Post by judge2020 » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

dccoolgai wrote: post #56

0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #12

Having worked for both union and non-union employers - it's a mixed bag. Unions have advantages and disadvantages. They are great for worker representation - but that's a double-edged sword. Ideally, unions protects worker's interests. In practice, they often lead to abuse, stagnation and corruption. I've personally witnessed union employees who contributed nothing for years, get perpetually shifted from team to team…

People _can_ be awful. I've seen founders, managers and execs bleed people dry - squeezing the life out of critical contributors whole stringing them along with promised of "getting their piece of the pie" that they had no intention of ever sharing. Telling anecdotes about "that one lazy guy who got paid for doing nothing" is tired. We've done that for the last 40 years. Time to try unions again, please.

Once a union is in place, it's hard to remove it, especially if you end up with a lot of union employees that act like the above. It's important for the workforce starting a union to choose, but they surely need to know both the pros and cons, right?

Re: Google hired union-busting consultants to convince employees “unions suck”

#65

Post by 1121redblackgo » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

gunapologist99 wrote: post #55

At one place I worked, I discovered that an employee had intentionally broken a machine that resulted in more than $8m in losses, but because of union negotiations, no one would do anything about it. At a different company, a union worker actually aimed a forklift at me, apparently because I was in IT. Unions historically served an important role, but they're an anachronism in the U.S. -- especially for coders at Goo…

I am not sure that anything in that long winded diatribe says anything about the usefulness of unions.

Re: Google hired union-busting consultants to convince employees “unions suck”

#66

Post by tw04 » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #12

Having worked for both union and non-union employers - it's a mixed bag. Unions have advantages and disadvantages. They are great for worker representation - but that's a double-edged sword. Ideally, unions protects worker's interests. In practice, they often lead to abuse, stagnation and corruption. I've personally witnessed union employees who contributed nothing for years, get perpetually shifted from team to team…

So what you're saying is you think everyone should have a worse standard of living to prevent that one lazy guy from not pulling his weight?

Re: Google hired union-busting consultants to convince employees “unions suck”

#67

Post by streblo » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

brightstep wrote: post #47

0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #12

Having worked for both union and non-union employers - it's a mixed bag. Unions have advantages and disadvantages. They are great for worker representation - but that's a double-edged sword. Ideally, unions protects worker's interests. In practice, they often lead to abuse, stagnation and corruption. I've personally witnessed union employees who contributed nothing for years, get perpetually shifted from team to team…

With regard to the lazy worker, honestly, who cares? You still get paid. The company isn't going under. No doubt like most situations of abuse, this is a minority case because in general people like being productive.

I'd care if I were an investor in such a company.

Re: Google hired union-busting consultants to convince employees “unions suck”

#68

Post by dqv » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 3:58 PM UTC

tobr wrote: post #39

0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #12

Having worked for both union and non-union employers - it's a mixed bag. Unions have advantages and disadvantages. They are great for worker representation - but that's a double-edged sword. Ideally, unions protects worker's interests. In practice, they often lead to abuse, stagnation and corruption. I've personally witnessed union employees who contributed nothing for years, get perpetually shifted from team to team…

Is this the argument against unions? They are made up of people and people can be awful?

It’s clearly not an argument against unions, only a reminder that they’re corruptible just like any other organization.

Re: Google hired union-busting consultants to convince employees “unions suck”

#69

Post by boh » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 3:58 PM UTC

0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #12

Having worked for both union and non-union employers - it's a mixed bag. Unions have advantages and disadvantages. They are great for worker representation - but that's a double-edged sword. Ideally, unions protects worker's interests. In practice, they often lead to abuse, stagnation and corruption. I've personally witnessed union employees who contributed nothing for years, get perpetually shifted from team to team…

So I guess unions do suck, thanks for clarifying. Hopefully people will be smart enough to not interfere with a firm's epic struggle for efficiency and polishing out the friction of overbearing worker compensation and benefits. Sounds like unions are too corrupt and will just interfere with the purity of corporate practices.

I love how people have an easier time imagining colonies on mars than giving labor a platform to express their interests.

Re: Google hired union-busting consultants to convince employees “unions suck”

#70

Post by judge2020 » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 3:59 PM UTC

borepop wrote: post #59

ransom1538 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American Unions: fat cats (presidents), dues, fancy dinners with the execs, mafia ties, corruption, pay offs, forced politics, exclusion of work based on joining, lowering of salary, years of law suites, subcontractors (non union) to actually do the work, brain drains, unmotivated work forces, forced protesting, layoffs, forced clicks, voting, forced discrimination. "We can't use her she is non-union". "Sure he touch…

As opposed to CEOs and upper management, who are all lovely people and want nothing but the best for their employees, and are definitely not motivated by short-term gains.

Depends on whether you get a good union structure or not. As an observer, it doesn't seem like employees get a choice besides when voting whether or not to instate a union at all.