Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality • Hacker News Board

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#61

Post by seba_dos1 » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 11:12 PM UTC

tonguez wrote: post #60

seba_dos1 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judging from how I was changing my opinion on similar matters when I was growing up, I guess she simply lacks the insight into why someone would feel the need to reject the established pronouns - she probably doesn't feel that need herself, so she doesn't have any frame of reference to be able to consider that until someone explains it to her, which makes her naturally gravitate towards seemingly unambiguous and clea…

"For me, it only "clicked" once I understood that gender and sexuality are completely arbitrary and subjective social constructs that try to describe a whole spectrum of multidimensional behaviors and (potentially repressed) feelings, so there's little point in trying to objectively categorize them - it's all about the subjective impression of the person themself" Sex is a fundamental property of living organisms; it…

Of course, but that's not really related to what I said.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#62

Post by Lammy » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 11:13 PM UTC

akvadrako wrote: post #3

It takes a while to get to the point, but this is what the page is about: As we explained in a recent review paper, researchers have repeatedly found evidence that Autistic individuals are, on average, more consistent, less biased, and more rational than non-autistic individuals in a variety of contexts. Specifically, many Autistic people seem to be less susceptible to cognitive biases, and therefore better able to m…

> it could indicate that at least mild Autism is a beneficial adaptation

Not picking on you or your post, but it's interesting that we still consider this an adaptation. What if this is humanity's natural state and allistics are the adaptation?

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#63

Post by howinteresting » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 11:14 PM UTC

AussieWog93 wrote: post #25

georgestephanis wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes hi, "aspergers" is an unfortunate nomenclature and many autistic folks (myself included) strongly resent it. It was named after a Nazi doctor (Hans Asperger) and used to classify autistic folks into "useful" and "non-useful" people -- as Nazis and Eugenicists are known to do. When you think of it, if you could refer to folks on the spectrum as such, without referencing the outdated nomenclature (the DSM-5 replace…

Quoted post unavailable.

Please ignore AussieWog93. georgestephanis is correct: autism politics are indeed messy but as an autistic person who in a different age would be classed as Asperger's, I detest the term for the same reason georgestephanis does.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#64

Post by TOMDM » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 11:15 PM UTC

tonguez wrote: post #60

seba_dos1 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judging from how I was changing my opinion on similar matters when I was growing up, I guess she simply lacks the insight into why someone would feel the need to reject the established pronouns - she probably doesn't feel that need herself, so she doesn't have any frame of reference to be able to consider that until someone explains it to her, which makes her naturally gravitate towards seemingly unambiguous and clea…

"For me, it only "clicked" once I understood that gender and sexuality are completely arbitrary and subjective social constructs that try to describe a whole spectrum of multidimensional behaviors and (potentially repressed) feelings, so there's little point in trying to objectively categorize them - it's all about the subjective impression of the person themself" Sex is a fundamental property of living organisms; it…

> so there's little point in trying to objectively categorize them

I think there's more than a little utility provided by the communication it enables. I'm all for non binary identities and letting people identify across them as they want, however with any change we must also recognize the utility in the previous norms so that we can preserve some useful aspects as we construct new norms.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#65

Post by TOMDM » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 11:19 PM UTC

mherrmann wrote: post #16

My girlfriend was diagnosed with autism 3 weeks ago and we had a related conversation just today. She said she feels more open-minded / less biased than other people. I thought it was because her different experiences were invalidated by society throughout her life. But this makes it sound like there's more to it. Very interesting.

Well, if we consider different causal factors, your proposed cause could be just as valid as a direct genetic cause.

It may be that the societal rejection autistic people face give them a perspective that enables a more rational worldview, or it could be directly caused by the autism itself.

Interested to see studies that follow up on this.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#66

Post by sergiomattei » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 11:19 PM UTC

emptybottle wrote: post #19

It's good to see appreciation of different neurotypes for their strengths. Many people with ASD put a lot of time and effort into learning and altering their natural behavior in order to better understand and interact in a way that is perceived as normal by nerutotypical people. I'm hopeful the inverse will happen more over time as well, neurotypicals putting effort into learning and adjusting their own behavior to b…

This is a struggle most on the spectrum can relate to. Teaching ourselves to understand, read the room, interact with others.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#67

Post by m_fayer » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 11:21 PM UTC

seba_dos1 wrote: post #52

rackjack wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I suspect the fact that Autism reduces a person's ability to relate emotionally and socially to themselves and others allows them to dedicate more brain power to thinking rationally. In a mild enough case, with a supportive tribe, they could be a useful advisor. No autistic members = tribe has trouble making good collective decisions. Too many autistic members = tribe can't collaborate. That's just my armchair…

That's a bad stereotype. It's far more common for autistic people to have the ability to relate emotionally to others cranked up to overwhelming levels (hyper-empathy), which makes them avoid situations that require relating to others out of severe stress it's usually causing on them - leading to other people perceiving them as unempathetic.

I almost wonder if empathy is the right word then, maybe this would best be described as something like "susceptibility to emotional contagion." Empathy as commonly defined includes an impulse to comfort and stand by, as opposed to avoidance.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#68

Post by cwkoss » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 11:23 PM UTC

In psychology undergrad, I read about a study of anorexic people: they had people rate their own attractiveness, and had strangers rate their attractiveness. Normal population consistently rated themselves higher in attractiveness than strangers did on average. However, anorexic's self ratings were much closer to stranger-ratings.

(May not be remembering this correctly and I assume this study was done in the 90s when thinness was more in fashion - wouldn't be surprised if it didn't replicate if done today)

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#69

Post by seba_dos1 » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 11:23 PM UTC

TOMDM wrote: post #64

tonguez wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For me, it only "clicked" once I understood that gender and sexuality are completely arbitrary and subjective social constructs that try to describe a whole spectrum of multidimensional behaviors and (potentially repressed) feelings, so there's little point in trying to objectively categorize them - it's all about the subjective impression of the person themself" Sex is a fundamental property of living organisms; it…

> so there's little point in trying to objectively categorize them I think there's more than a little utility provided by the communication it enables. I'm all for non binary identities and letting people identify across them as they want, however with any change we must also recognize the utility in the previous norms so that we can preserve some useful aspects as we construct new norms.

Can you give an example of such utility? Frankly, I don't see it - in my opinion, the best options are either not having genderized pronouns at all (and that's the option I'd actually prefer), or expressing the whole range of identities with them. Going somewhere in the middle is nothing more than just asking for dissonance to happen, which isn't useful.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#70

Post by mwigdahl » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 11:24 PM UTC

georgestephanis wrote: post #43

overboard2 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes hi, why is the category of those with Asperger's syndrome not useful for the further understanding and communication of information.

What information do you feel can be communicated and understood with that moniker that is not served by Autism Spectrum? And why do you feel those distinctions (if any) merit a wholly distinct diagnosis?

I'll bite.

"Autism Spectrum" is a deliberately vague term that has been created and stretched to bring a variety of minor social and emotional functional differences under the general label of "autism". As far as I can tell, in the US the major purpose of this has been to divert special education funding from severely impaired children to less-impaired children from higher socioeconomic strata, and it has been very effective in doing so.

So to directly answer your questions, "Asperger's" (or whatever substitute term you find acceptable -- I'm perfectly fine with a substitute) is very useful to distinguish people with minor social and emotional functional differences -- those people who are, for example, able to hold down a tech job and post about autistic politics to Hacker News -- from highly impaired people such as my daughter who will never hold a job and whose verbal skills are at a three year old level.

These distinctions are vitally important to ensure that appropriate funding goes to these highly impaired children rather than being siphoned away to children of well-connected or politically savvy parents who are fully capable of succeeding in the mainstream educational system without aid.