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TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

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Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I see now in your and others' comments that I had some false impressions about working conditions in american factories.

The working requirements in 24/7 manufacturing facilities is different than most 8-5 jobs. When you have $30B invested into a facility you have to maximize output and that means keeping all of the equipment up and running.

Downtime in one of these EUV fabs is going to cost in excess of ~$1m worth of product per hour. So yeah, you keep it staffed full of very talented maintenance technicians 24/7.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#62
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not open, but many of the new engineers are currently training in Taiwan. The engineer in question is simply seeing what his TSMC counterparts are doing. The Taiwanese culture is very hard working and that is why TSMC is ahead of Intel and Samsung now. You are correct though, there won't be an issue because this hard work atmosphere will weed out the weak and breed the strong.

What? No. The reason they got ahead was because their business model got them volume production on a scale that let them tweak and improve their process faster and more efficiently compared to the competition. And Intel shooting themselves in the foot and skipping EUV for their last few nodes was a big factor too. Also, suggesting people are “weak” or “strong” based on the number of hours they’re willing/able to work…

Because we're all done with that "grind culture" bullshit, 100%, and we're finally calling it out for what it is.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not open, but many of the new engineers are currently training in Taiwan. The engineer in question is simply seeing what his TSMC counterparts are doing. The Taiwanese culture is very hard working and that is why TSMC is ahead of Intel and Samsung now. You are correct though, there won't be an issue because this hard work atmosphere will weed out the weak and breed the strong.

Given that Intel had undisputed process leadership until 10nm it seems that the "Taiwanese work culture advantage" works in mysterious ways.

It's not mysterious at all: since they are shorter on average and thus have smaller hands, their work culture advantage only appeared at processes smaller than 10nm!

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#64

So, they spoke with one anonymous staff member, and then sourced, wait for it... Glassdoor. I'm not saying these claims are untrue or that they even seem untrue, but it's still squeezing an article out of... not a whole lot. Glassdoor doesn't have a reputation (in my circles) for "balanced opinions".

When looking at or using platforms like Glasdoor one always has to take the "selection bias" into account. People posting on a platform selfselect.

And it is often when something is wrong, that one tends to feel the need to communicate that. When all is fine there often just is no need to communicate that.

So using Glasdoor without taking this into consideration is at least an interesting editorial decision.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like inefficiency to those that don't understand the process. These engineers are working on equipment that costs $10M-150M each. Having a long meeting in person meeting to discuss ongoing issues is not a liability. A brand new engineer probably doesn't realize the value in having face to face communication. Also...they didn't say it hasn't been changed since 1987, it's just the same system (like saying I h…

I mean, if you know this first-hand, then I concede to your knowledge, but the article does say the system has only had some "slight improvements" since 1987. I can easily see dismissing someone griping just because the UI is "old", but if they have feedback about how the system of communicating critical data across shifts can be automated so it doesn't take three hours, I'd be all ears. I wouldn't advocate doing awa…

Having critical information relayed in text form is a sure way to make the next person read it, right.

There is a benefit to both: if they can be expressed in a system quickly (someone needs to carefully put it in, and someone needs to attentively read it), they can be expressed in a meeting quickly too. In practice, if it takes a 3h face-to-face handoff, it'd probably be 4h for each side to do it properly in a textual form.

The benefit to having it recorded in the system is for reference and tracking purposes.

But like any system, there are always inefficiences to remove and optimize. Bring it up with your manager and they should push for it if it makes sense.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#66

None of this makes sense. 1. Long shifts are normal for fab operators in the U.S., eg Intel. 2. Certain engineers are always on call if an emergency happens, also true at Intel. 3. Samsung, not exactly the “live slow and enjoy life” type of culture as an employer operates fabs just fine in the U.S.

There are long hours, and there are long hours.

I consider my self a fairly hard working person, in my first job I've seen situations where people came in on a Monday and would go to their homes next Monday. I've done a full time start up with a day job, quite literally coding every waking hour of my life(like 2 - 4 hours sleep a day) for years. And then I relocated from Bangalore to Bay Area for a while, and met a few of our Chinese colleagues- Even by my standards the Chinese were in a different productivity league altogether.

One person I knew would have three monitors, would eat at desk all the three meals, not sure when he even took breaks, but he kind of worked all the time, I mean literally. Would watch tickets in one screen, production issues in one, and work in another one. He'd read every ticket, feature request, pull request, and comment every where, knew everything and would just outperform anybody by some factors(Mind you people in our team I knew were kind of legends themselves). It ain't just the hours, they through and through dominated the initiative. You stood no chance.

I knew several Chinese colleagues and friends like these. They are all good people wanting to make a good life by working hard, nothing to blame them. But it was kind of an unwritten rule that if you had two Chinese working in your team, you had no chance beating them.

Im in serious awe of the Chinese culture. They also seemed to have very little gender discrimination, and in general little less hyper about things like religion etc. I guess all this things give them a natural edge.

So yeah, not all long shifts are equal.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#67

None of this makes sense. 1. Long shifts are normal for fab operators in the U.S., eg Intel. 2. Certain engineers are always on call if an emergency happens, also true at Intel. 3. Samsung, not exactly the “live slow and enjoy life” type of culture as an employer operates fabs just fine in the U.S.

1. A global pandemic that has resulted in 4.5 million people quitting their jobs in the United States in the last month has resulted in people leaving jobs with long shifts. I bet that this has also affected people in TSMC fabrication plants.

2. It is possible that being on call at Intel requires fewer hours of attention than being on call at TSMC. It is also possible that Intel is offering higher starting salaries than TSMC, given that Intel is in a position of relative weakness.

3. You don't actually know if Samsung has been doing "just fine" recently in the United States. I'm sure it did in 2018 and 2019 and the beginning in 2020. I'm very skeptical that Samsung has been humming along without incident for the past six months.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#68
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel has people work "more than 12-hour workdays" often?

Probably yes. Major manufacturing sites are often CONTINUOUSLY (24/365.25+) staffed with "12 hour" shifts that include overlap via a lunch and normal breaks making those at least 13 hours of on site time long. One body slot takes 4 people to fill that way, but that leaves zero slack for vacation, sick days, etc.

but of course 3/4 days a week those 12-13h?

I worked in system like this and I actually loved that, especially that those were night shifts

I'd really take 3(+1)x 12h nights over 5x 8h

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#70
post #4

TL;DR in three lines: >> “The work culture in Taiwan is really different than in the U.S.,” said a person identified as a TSMC Arizona fab equipment engineer on Glassdoor >> “The reality for people from Taiwan is that they are doing even more than 12-hour days often". >> “TSMC will have to change to an eight-hour work day five days a week.” ... well yes!

Or: Somebody works at "Non-exist" Fab 8 hours a day, and insist that TSMC must follow such rules.
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