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The Drenching Richness of Andrei Tarkovsky

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Re: The Drenching Richness of Andrei Tarkovsky

#61
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tarkovsky was an Orthodox Christian, but his ideas about the irreducibility of experience parallel Zen Let's add that this is not by chance: the irreducibility of experience (especially divine experience) is a core motive of Orthodox Christianity as well (which also has a long tradition of mystics).

The idea that experience is not irreducible is rare. Who thinks they can analyse consciousness into more fundamental elements? Max Planck: "I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."

> Who thinks they can analyse consciousness into more fundamental elements?

About half of HN, who think that we will be able to manufacture some form of AGI that should have the right to be treated as the equal of humans.

Re: The Drenching Richness of Andrei Tarkovsky

#62

I don't think his work travels particularly well in the West. It is steeped in symbolism, deep metaphysics and calm, meditative, photography. All attributes that have been essentially banned from the fast food production/consumption chain that has conditioned audiences. Its a bit like pop music. If all you've ever heard is (basic) western harmony and suddenly get exposed to some weird oriental stuff it does not even…

There are directors in the west that have similar ideas and even see some mainstream success, for example Terrence Malik.

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Re: The Drenching Richness of Andrei Tarkovsky

#63
post #49

I don't think his work travels particularly well in the West. It is steeped in symbolism, deep metaphysics and calm, meditative, photography. All attributes that have been essentially banned from the fast food production/consumption chain that has conditioned audiences. Its a bit like pop music. If all you've ever heard is (basic) western harmony and suddenly get exposed to some weird oriental stuff it does not even…

You say that even though Tarkovsky is absolutely worshipped by Western film fans?

Sure, cinephiles, but most people in the US haven't heard of Tarkovsky. Even fairly educated people I've suggested a Tarkovsky film to will give me a blank expression and say "who?"

Re: The Drenching Richness of Andrei Tarkovsky

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Zen is seeing things clearly and calmly. It's clarity without the filter of thoughts and feelings. Based on my my understanding from practitioners, zen is not characterized by absence or elimination of feelings, but not letting them control your behavior or your thoughts. You don't have to feel like a robot, but you might choose to react like one. There are things in life that are beautiful, happy, and sad. The poin…

Elimination of feelings is not a desired outcome and if extreme can be classed a disorder such and depression, dissociative disorder or psychopathy. I found Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and Dialectic Behavior Therapy (DBT and Wise Mind) very helpful in dealing with troublesome emotions and then Zen which, as you say, is about not letting them control your behavior or your thoughts but calmly observing them come…

Feelings, for the most part, are intertwined with thoughts. This is what makes CBT and its ilk so valuable. For example...

I'm feeling panicked because I've been given a new manager. I think the new manager may not see the value of my role. Turns out, the new manager is impressed with my experience and has heard good things about me from others. They believe me to be an important asset to the team. My feeling of panic evaporates.

I'd venture that at least 80% of what accounts for 'stress' in the 21st century can be chalked up to the stories we tell ourselves.

Re: The Drenching Richness of Andrei Tarkovsky

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that experience is not irreducible is rare. Who thinks they can analyse consciousness into more fundamental elements? Max Planck: "I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."

> Who thinks they can analyse consciousness into more fundamental elements? About half of HN, who think that we will be able to manufacture some form of AGI that should have the right to be treated as the equal of humans.

I pre-commit to supporting AI and automaton rights. I am an ethical vegetarian.

Re: The Drenching Richness of Andrei Tarkovsky

#66
Tarkovsky may perhaps be the pioneer of slow cinema that consisted of long shots observing subjects like a thousand-yard stare. In Nostalghia (spelled in the Russian transliteration), the final scene consists of a man carrying a candle for 10 minutes. While detractors may be appealed by the hostile nature of slow cinema, their champions like Bela Tarr, Theo Angelopoulos, and contemporary ones like Bi Gan and Apichatpong Weerasethakul embrace long shots for their ability to convey the atmosphere of bleakness. Bela Tarr even made an 8-hour film called Santantango, which Susan Sontag praised as a film she would watch every year.

Tarkovsky was not appreciated in Soviet Russia, where distribution depended upon the whims of the censors. When censors criticized not his politics (his films were apolitical) but the lengthy content, he would respond that his films were intended for viewing by "Bresson, Bergman, and Dreyer" (in which order I forget). His films would be given minimal circulation and screened briefly at venues, like in worker's pubs for a week. He would even fight the bureaucrats until he had it with the forced cancellation of The First Day, which thereafter he burned all remaining film and set. (The project purportedly commented on the state's official atheism that were at odds with his deep Russian Orthodox Christianity.) After he defected, he collaborated with his favorite Bergman actors and crews until he died of cancer, possibly caused by exposure to harmful substances during the filming of The Stalker.

In Japan, Akira Kurosawa championed Tarkovsky and promoted his works. Today, there is almost always a screening of Tarkovsky in an arthouse cinema every year. While the content of his films eluded me on first viewing, I now observe the silences ripe with meaning. His films transcend time, imparting an experience that lasts briefly and eternally. There is nothing more exciting in film than his characters staring lengthily into the abyss of the human condition.

Re: The Drenching Richness of Andrei Tarkovsky

#67
post #20

Tarkovsky is a genius. The original novel for Stalker is a must read (esp. if you can read Russian). But I cannot watch some of his movies after I learned that he _cruelly_ killed a horse in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Rublev_(film)#Depiction... . I cannot justify this for the sake of art.

I believe the horse was going to be killed anyways in a slaughterhouse.

Re: The Drenching Richness of Andrei Tarkovsky

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that experience is not irreducible is rare. Who thinks they can analyse consciousness into more fundamental elements? Max Planck: "I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."

> Who thinks they can analyse consciousness into more fundamental elements? About half of HN, who think that we will be able to manufacture some form of AGI that should have the right to be treated as the equal of humans.

A person who thinks that animals are nothing more than colonies of abnormally cooperative eukaryotes may still dislike animal cruelty on the basis that anyone who is capable of it would be capable of cruelty to humans, or that practicing one prepares you for the other. I imagine the same argument could be made to apply to robots, even if you wanted to sidestep the machine consciousness question.

P.S. this argument is a very familiar one if you recognize it - if you have ever heard the advice not to date anyone who's mean to waiters, that's the same idea - that whatever causes cruelty, causes it against all targets.

Re: The Drenching Richness of Andrei Tarkovsky

#70
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who thinks they can analyse consciousness into more fundamental elements? About half of HN, who think that we will be able to manufacture some form of AGI that should have the right to be treated as the equal of humans.

I pre-commit to supporting AI and automaton rights. I am an ethical vegetarian.

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