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Sen. Joe Manchin says no to $2T bill: ‘I can’t vote for it’

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Re: Sen. Joe Manchin says no to $2T bill: ‘I can’t vote for it’

#61

Post by Turing_Machine »

kergonath wrote: post #36
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I do, so that the rich states don’t fall into the trap of thinking everybody is like them and as rich as them and thinks as they do and loves every new idea they have. Checks and balances.

[flagged]

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the blue areas stopped sending the red areas simulated pieces of green paper and the red areas stopped sending the blue areas food, water, and energy.

I say "areas" because there aren't really any "blue states". Just islands of blue in a sea of red.

Interesting in theory, that is. I would recommend against running this experiment in real life. Strongly.

Re: Sen. Joe Manchin says no to $2T bill: ‘I can’t vote for it’

#62

Post by garmaine »

kergonath wrote: post #38
Ekaros wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Republic simply means there is no monarch. Dictatorships are kinda interesting, but if they are elected, it still falls on side of republic.

Russia and China are examples of that (republics that are also dictatorships).

China has a President-for-life. That’s not a republic by any measure.

Re: Sen. Joe Manchin says no to $2T bill: ‘I can’t vote for it’

#63

Post by garmaine »

thghtihadanacct wrote: post #12
rafale wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is a republic, not a democracy. And for good reasons. Otherwise, politicians will try to one-up each other with promises of freebies. It's easy to win elections when you promise free healthcare, free education, free childcare,... The average person will vote in their immediate interest and not worry about the big picture. The big picture: nothing is free.

I dont remember seeing the word 'free' in the posted article anywhere related to the paying for this bill. In fact, it clearly states the cost will come from taxes on the wealthy ... whom Manchin represents.

West Virginia is wealthy?

Re: Sen. Joe Manchin says no to $2T bill: ‘I can’t vote for it’

#64

Post by garmaine »

syki wrote: post #50
mozman wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an independent and I do not support this bill. Can we please not make it sound so black and white? Republicans aren’t evil, and neither are democrats. Both groups exist and have the right to fight for their agendas. Accept it.

I have not painted anyone as evil. I suggest you reread what I wrote and take it at face value. It appears to me that you are projecting and making some assumptions about my views that aren’t supported by anything that I wrote. My post is about imbalances in the present system. It is my view and contention that the current federal system for apportioning senators and representatives is not sustainable. Everyone is fr…

You made an automatic assumption that this bill is in the best interests of the masses. That may not be the case.

Re: Sen. Joe Manchin says no to $2T bill: ‘I can’t vote for it’

#65

Post by Ekaros »

garmaine wrote: post #62
kergonath wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia and China are examples of that (republics that are also dictatorships).

China has a President-for-life. That’s not a republic by any measure.

It is not a hereditary position. One could even argue that USA isn't republic as there was two people elected from same family as head of state.

Re: Sen. Joe Manchin says no to $2T bill: ‘I can’t vote for it’

#66

Post by the_only_law »

DennisAleynikov wrote: post #54
mikeheaton wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm scandalized!

what kind of bot even is this, gosh

I’m not even sure they’re a bot, I’ve seen low effort trolls pop up all over the site now, usually quickly killed off.

The most curious case, was an [banned] account making comments like this with a 10 year tenure. I’m not sure if they were posting unhinged crap for 10 years, or if they at some point were relatively benign until losing it for some reason.

Re: Sen. Joe Manchin says no to $2T bill: ‘I can’t vote for it’

#67

Post by garmaine »

thghtihadanacct wrote: post #21
phkahler wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Democratic senators represent 40 million more people than Republican senators and their agenda can't be passed. The last time Republican senators represented more than half the population was 1996. Rural, low population states have far too much power in the present system. This is not sustainable. Spending insane amounts of money like that is not sustainable. We are already looking at greater than 10 percent annua…

This bill looks like its trying to give some of it back too. One of the few times a big bill like this goes to us rather than war, bank bail outs, or propping up some other country.

It’s not clear it would be a net positive for most readers of HN, who are in the income ranges or building businesses which would be affected by the new tax rules.

Re: Sen. Joe Manchin says no to $2T bill: ‘I can’t vote for it’

#68

Post by ryrymcfly »

akmarinov wrote: post #45
defaultname wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is a democratic republic. Canada, the UK and a number of others are parliamentary democracy. They are ALL democracies, and I'm unaware of a single country on the planet that is a pure democracy. All are representative in some way. This bizarre "not a democracy" (for the oldest ongoing democracy) is not based in reality at all, but someone read it somewhere and just mindlessly repeats it. > It's easy to win ele…

The UK is a monarchy. All power comes from the Queen, not the people, she’s the sovereign. At least on paper.

Wait till you hear about the magna Carta....

The queen has no more control over the country than a hood ornament has over the direction of a car.

Re: Sen. Joe Manchin says no to $2T bill: ‘I can’t vote for it’

#69

Post by garmaine »

vanviegen wrote: post #55
solarhoma wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a push to water down rural votes (typically conservative) as democrats feel they are not represented fairly among the senate. Arguing that Wyoming should not have the same power in the senate that California has with many more people. The US government was not set up as a pure democracy but rather a republic. They forget the founding fathers did this to prevent a tyranny by majority. The ones arguing for abo…

I don't see how the tyranny by a large minority is better than the tyranny by a majority. In either case you can find yourself in disagreement with the government. That's the very nature of government- enforcing policy, hopefully for the common good. How is the republic protecting people against that?

They could, you know, actually work out their differences and legislate, instead of acting to the CPAN camera and following whatever their party says.

Re: Sen. Joe Manchin says no to $2T bill: ‘I can’t vote for it’

#70

Post by ryrymcfly »

kergonath wrote: post #57
synergy20 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax and Law and Republic are the three to hold the society in order with enough individual rights for the long run. The only way I can agree on pure majority vote is that you need to qualify for it, e.g. only those who contributed to the society(taxpayers,social works, housewives raising kids,etc) can vote(disabled can vote no matter what). Voting right should be earned.

> Voting right should be earned. The problem you run into is that someone has to define how it should be earned. Several criteria have been tried (wealth, tax paid, military service, etc), and all of them have been found inadequate in one or several respects. Several revolutions have been fought over this. Still, assuming that a perfect criterion would exist, what would be yours?

Mine would be qualified service to society. 2 years of public service, with no option to bypass. Service being tailored for your particular skills and abilities.
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