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Analogue Pocket Hate Story

endrift.com

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Re: Analogue Pocket Hate Story

#61

Post by soneca »

donatj wrote: post #50

I think Analogue was more than reasonable here? They offered an entirely reasonable amount of money for anyone who didn't live in the valley (most people), then we're flexible enough to double it when it wasn't enough. They asked the person to sign a reasonable NDA that sounds much less restrictive than anything I've ever had to sign, and they were out? 6 months of non-competition on a direct competitor in a tech job…

Doubling an offer is a red flag for me too. Blatant lowballing which, in my view as well, is disrespectful.

This “non-competition for 6 months is nothing” is also a red flag, in my view, for the whole tech scene then. It doesn’t make it right, if common as you say, just make the norm wrong.

And you left out of your comment the point that they were not fulfilling a few promises made even before the job had started. Which is a very big part of author’s reason.

Re: Analogue Pocket Hate Story

#62

Post by athenot »

If anyone else finds themselves in this position, don't ever entertain fixed-price bids unless you're absolutely desperate for work. Instead, insist on an hourly rate (at approximately 1.5x - 2.5x market value). You're essentially an expert consultant brought in to address a very specific need that the company has yet doesn't want to invest in mastering themselves.

Reframe a fixed price as "this will be X amount of hours". Invariably, nobody knows what kind of "gotchas" will be encountered during dev, and with fixed price, you're absorbing that risk yourself. As an hourly rate, that risk is borne by the client. This also applies to shifting scope; if the client shifts scope mid-way, they will bear that cost in an hourly setup instead of you.

Re: Analogue Pocket Hate Story

#63

Post by swiftcoder »

zackbloom wrote: post #51
chipotle_coyote wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, your comment reads like a case of 'I don't know math'-ism. - $10,000 for four months is the equivalent of a $30K/year salary. That would have been low for me when I lived in Tampa, Florida, in 2000; in Silicon Valley in 2020, you could make more than that working at Panda Express. (This is not an exaggeration for effect, I promise.) - doubling it to $20,000 is a $60K/year salary equivalent, righ…

My understanding is the company wasn't paying for her time, it was paying for a job to be done by an ostensibly part-time contractor. I'm not sure how the deadline changing increases the amount of work that was to be done.

They are asking for a timed exclusive on a product that isn't part of the contracted work. Timed exclusive release rights typically cost significantly more than straight-up contract work.

Re: Analogue Pocket Hate Story

#64

Post by CyberRabbi »

kabdib wrote: post #34
friedman23 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A company that's willing to double your salary when you point out the offer is low sounds pretty great to me. Yeah, a $1 to $2 raise, how generous. What I got out of this article is that the author knows the value of their time. $20,000 for 4 to 6 months of work for a software engineer is an insult. They might as well ask him to work for free.

$20K is at most 100 hours of consulting time in SV. Probably less [it's been quite a while since I was in that market]. Analogue was hoping for a screaming deal on this software. He was right to walk away.

100% it wasn’t even worth the effort of asking for more. I’ve tried that, it’s just humiliating. Their offer was openly disrespectful. If more engineers were brave enough to walk away from abusive employers like this it would be a better and more equitable industry.

Re: Analogue Pocket Hate Story

#65

Post by swiftcoder »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #43
zackbloom wrote: post #3

This reads like a case of 'all about me'-ism. It sounds like this person negotiated their salary, and then decided the company didn't value them _because_ the company agreed to raise it when asked. If your goal is to have people throw money at you which you don't ask for, you are going to have a tough time working. A company that's willing to double your salary when you point out the offer is low sounds pretty great…

With all due respect, your comment reads like a case of 'I don't know math'-ism. - $10,000 for four months is the equivalent of a $30K/year salary. That would have been low for me when I lived in Tampa, Florida, in 2000; in Silicon Valley in 2020, you could make more than that working at Panda Express. (This is not an exaggeration for effect, I promise.) - doubling it to $20,000 is a $60K/year salary equivalent, righ…

Also keep in mind that contractor rates typically need to be 1.5-2.0x higher than salaried wages, since the contractor has to cover all healthcare+benefits themselves, plus whatever time it takes to find a next contract/gig/job when the current contract is over.

Re: Analogue Pocket Hate Story

#66

Post by sph »

athenot wrote: post #62

If anyone else finds themselves in this position, don't ever entertain fixed-price bids unless you're absolutely desperate for work. Instead, insist on an hourly rate (at approximately 1.5x - 2.5x market value). You're essentially an expert consultant brought in to address a very specific need that the company has yet doesn't want to invest in mastering themselves. Reframe a fixed price as "this will be X amount of h…

Fixed prices are always an incredibly bad idea, unless the price is based on your (possibly unique) expertise rather than time involved.

If you can bill $1M for a project because you're a worldwide expert, do so, otherwise bill by hour/day/week because you should already know that deadlines will be broken and the spec you are given when you sign has nothing to do with actually is required to ship the product.

Re: Analogue Pocket Hate Story

#67

Post by willob33 »

donatj wrote: post #50

I think Analogue was more than reasonable here? They offered an entirely reasonable amount of money for anyone who didn't live in the valley (most people), then we're flexible enough to double it when it wasn't enough. They asked the person to sign a reasonable NDA that sounds much less restrictive than anything I've ever had to sign, and they were out? 6 months of non-competition on a direct competitor in a tech job…

Yeah. The author calls it out clearly; their COL being insane is on them.

This feels like publicly processing having too much going on at one point.

It’s hardly Analogues fault code hipsters must absolutely live in the most expensive urban area.

Analogue is learning too. They don’t see daily life through everyone’s specific lense.

Accept that if you want to be an ornate snowflake, it will take outsiders time to understand.

Re: Analogue Pocket Hate Story

#68

Post by Alekhine »

kabdib wrote: post #34
friedman23 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A company that's willing to double your salary when you point out the offer is low sounds pretty great to me. Yeah, a $1 to $2 raise, how generous. What I got out of this article is that the author knows the value of their time. $20,000 for 4 to 6 months of work for a software engineer is an insult. They might as well ask him to work for free.

$20K is at most 100 hours of consulting time in SV. Probably less [it's been quite a while since I was in that market]. Analogue was hoping for a screaming deal on this software. He was right to walk away.

Minor correction, Endrift is a woman

Re: Analogue Pocket Hate Story

#69

Post by Arainach »

zackbloom wrote: post #49
friedman23 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A company that's willing to double your salary when you point out the offer is low sounds pretty great to me. Yeah, a $1 to $2 raise, how generous. What I got out of this article is that the author knows the value of their time. $20,000 for 4 to 6 months of work for a software engineer is an insult. They might as well ask him to work for free.

She was very explicit about working on it part-time. If she doesn't know how much of his time it will take, how would the company? Isn't it her job to ask for the appropriate amount of money, and reject an offer which isn't enough?

>I’m not very good at estimating timelines, so I gave a (very) rough estimate of 2 to 4 months. A reply affirming that that sounded reasonable, with an estimation of 300 to 400 hours of work, with a price tag of $10,000 was what I got back (assuming the project didn’t run seriously overtime).

The author of the article gave an estimate of hundreds of hours across 2 to 4 months and Analogue's valuation of that time was $10k - for an expert in the domain working in software. That number is an insult. Even doubled it's quite bad.

Re: Analogue Pocket Hate Story

#70

Post by xondono »

friedman23 wrote: post #24
zackbloom wrote: post #3

This reads like a case of 'all about me'-ism. It sounds like this person negotiated their salary, and then decided the company didn't value them _because_ the company agreed to raise it when asked. If your goal is to have people throw money at you which you don't ask for, you are going to have a tough time working. A company that's willing to double your salary when you point out the offer is low sounds pretty great…

>A company that's willing to double your salary when you point out the offer is low sounds pretty great to me. Yeah, a $1 to $2 raise, how generous. What I got out of this article is that the author knows the value of their time. $20,000 for 4 to 6 months of work for a software engineer is an insult. They might as well ask him to work for free.

> $20,000 for 4 to 6 months of work for a software engineer is an insult.

In SV, the company is from HK. If that offer was ridiculous too, she should have said as much.

I’ve been offered flat 200$ for jobs that cost >10k$. Your clients might not know the price of your labor, it’s your job to inform them.

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