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The sticky issue of consent in street photography

dinalitovsky.bulletin.com

61–70 of 292 posts

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#61

Can I take your picture in a public space? A picture of your kids? Your kids in their bathing suits at the pool? Everyone draws the line, and at a different point. It's not boolean.

It absolutely is boolean for some people. If I'm in a public space w/o an expectation of privacy you have every right to photograph me. Same goes for my daughter, bathing-suit or street-clothes. I value the right of others to make photos in public spaces and I recognize that it applies to me as a subject.

Upskirt photos are typically done at public places.

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#62
This made me think - and I've still not managed to produce a coherent viewpoint.

Closest I can come up with is that there's some sort of asymmetric 'value' that sometimes appears from nowhere and this throws us off a bit.

As people have mentioned, security cameras are filming me all the time - and I've no issue with that. My image has no value. It's one amongst billions of frames taken, that will be ultimately wiped, unseen and uncared about. I don't care about the image as I know the owner doesn't - there's a balance.

If one of these frames was taken by a photographer deliberately - then suddenly I care more. Why did he take it? What was I doing? Where will it be shown? To whom will it be shown? What will they think of me, based upon it etc etc.

By taking that image, they've assigned value to it - but where's the value been taken from?

Maybe it's like the wind and there's 'value' going to waste all around us and the photo is just like putting up a turbine or a sail to capture it?

Maybe it's like somebody mining for diamonds under my house - they've found some value in something I didn't know I had, but I now want my share.

Maybe it's the concept of part of your soul being captured in the photo. That photo can be shown and might provoke a response to me, but I no longer have any control over it.

Maybe it's the flip side of social media, where you can choose the thoughts and images you wish to push to the world as your representation - except you didn't choose it and you don't have a reply or delete button next to it.

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me the objections come from assuming bad intent of the photographer A little apples to oranges, but I get the feeling the same folks who are against being photographed in public are probably pro police bodycams And how far and widely do they apply this? Sailor kiss in Times Sq comes to mind. Shots of the crowd at a sporting event? And then there's war photography...

> A little apples to oranges, but I get the feeling the same folks who are against being photographed in public are probably pro police bodycams The reasoning is not contradictory as you imply at the end; it is indeed apples and oranges. The "pro police bodycam" position is for capturing the actions of the person wearing it , protecting the camera's subject by adding accountability. The point is for the recording to…

Like most things it's a double-edged sword - would the protests last year have happened without publicly shot video of the Floyd incident?

Impossible to say yes or no, but it definitely seemed pivotal

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me the objections come from assuming bad intent of the photographer A little apples to oranges, but I get the feeling the same folks who are against being photographed in public are probably pro police bodycams And how far and widely do they apply this? Sailor kiss in Times Sq comes to mind. Shots of the crowd at a sporting event? And then there's war photography...

As an aside, the times square kiss is kind of messed up. They didn't know each other, and the woman didn't want the kiss. It's kind of weird that such an iconic image of celebration here is an image of sexual assault.

Yikes. It was just the first 'candid historic photo' that I thought of

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#65

I’m willing to be swayed on this issue but to me the word “consent” implies permission, and the word permission implies some type of authority. In the case of photography in public there is no authority so no consent is needed. I personally believe that, for the most part, ethics and legality align here. I don’t think it is unethical to photograph and publish a picture of someone in public. However, I think there may…

I agree for figures in public places, but taking a years worth of pictures through a window (from a public place into a private place) is also protected by law (from the article).

Is it OK to video/telephoto photograph from a rooftop through a window above the curtains into a shower of a naked person (over 18) and sell those on the internet along with the person's name and address? What about using deep IR to see through sheer curtains? Is it OK for the police to do the same with radar and sonar inside people's homes?

How far do you have to go to have some expectation of privacy?

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#66
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely is boolean for some people. If I'm in a public space w/o an expectation of privacy you have every right to photograph me. Same goes for my daughter, bathing-suit or street-clothes. I value the right of others to make photos in public spaces and I recognize that it applies to me as a subject.

Upskirt photos are typically done at public places.

[deleted]

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#67
There are so many bad takes in this. But mostly, I think the author is internally inconsistent on multiple fronts.

In one paragraph she argues that the subjects of photos aren't upset by having their photo taken and then shared/promoted/published whatever.

> Over the years, many people I’ve photographed have found themselves either in publications or on Instagram. Almost everyone asked me to send them a copy, thanking me for the captured moment.

But later she says she fully expects that if she asked for consent after a photo is taken, it wouldn't be given.

> And asking for it afterwards almost guarantees you will be turned down. Even I, as a photographer, would feel suspicious if a stranger came up to me saying they just took my photo and would like some kind of retroactive permission.

This to me highlights that she's cherry-picking. Some subjects are fine with their picture being taken and shared. Great! But clearly this doesn't imply that all subjects are fine with it, and she knows this. If you're going to explicitly disregard some subject's "strong personal preferences" when they disagree with you, you don't get to use other subjects' acquiescence as any kind of evidence of an absence of harm.

She highlights a photographer who spent a year photographing a family through their windows, and say that though it was legal, "the ethics of what he was doing are certainly up for debate." But later she says "But for an action to transcend individual discomfort and enter the netherworld of immorality there has to be both a strong societal consensus as well as palpable, real-world harm resulting from it." So ... if the family didn't experience a "palpable, real-world harm", the photographer wasn't being unethical? Who gets to decide whether the harm was 'real-world'? Does she think that only if a domestic abuser is able to hunt down their ex or something that a subject has experienced any "harm"?

The author jumps from a lack of "palpable" harm to conclude "there is nothing inherently dangerous in the mere act of photographing people, children included, in the anonymity of a public space." "Unethical" and "inherently dangerous" are not the same, and a harm, which may or may not be "palpable" is that photography coupled with social media and instant sharable publishing can totally destroy the "anonymity of a public space" that she takes as a given. Have you experienced stage fright? If in a public space someone builds a stage around you, and places you before a digital audience, have you experienced harm? Have you fastidiously curated and cropped and tweaked images of yourself before putting them into particular public contexts? Do you experience a 'harm' if a photographer with a large following decides that the candid shot of you which they think will get the greatest audience response is not one that's flattering? Is that harm 'palpable'?

I think the understanding of "ethics" in this context has to switch from being about trying to establish "harm", and instead look a equity and power. The photographer sees an opportunity to benefit. Taking the photo followed by sharing and promotion may bolster the photographer's reputation, build their audience, even lead to financial benefit later. The photographer gets to exercise choice and control throughout the process -- which shot to use, how to crop it and manipulate it, in what context to show it. The subject has no control, likely enjoys no share in any benefit, and has the possibility to see various perhaps immaterial harms. It's unethical in part because it's inequitable; it's arranging one's own benefit at another person's possible expense -- and arguing then that the detriment to others isn't "palpable" or "real-world" is just minimizing so she can keep doing what she wants to do.

Yes it's legal. Often harms will be negligible. I'm not saying that street photographers are monsters. But as with any behavior with concentrated benefits (in this case to photographers) and diffuse costs (to subjects), of course the party that stands to gain is going to say they're doing nothing wrong -- and they're the least credible judge exactly because they have the most to gain.

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#68
post #58
post #31

Tangential, but my fav case/story/art related to this. Article about the case : "Voyeuristic Photographer Arne Svenson Wins New York Appellate Court Case- Should New York revise its privacy laws?" https://news.artnet.com/market/arne-svenson-neighbors-photog... And a talk by the photographer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePjeX6IiSTQ And an article with more of the photos: https://www.itsnicethat.com/articles/arne-s…

As I understand the law "commercial use" as requiring a release form does not include 'advertising yourself as an artist, or selling your photos as art'. This is different from offering your pictures as stock photography, as PR materials, or in advertising of anything other than yourself.

I think you're right, I only posted the links because I happened to find that art/artist/story particularly interesting/good.

From another post on the same blog:

"Publishing an image. Not only is it legal to photograph anyone from a public space, it is also legal to display, publish and sell the images in any context except commercial (meaning advertising). This could get a bit confusing to a non-photographer, as it did for Erno Nussenzweig, an unwitting subject of a Philip-Lorca diCorcia Heads project. Discovering that a photo of himself sold for thousands of dollars in a fine art gallery, Nussenzweig sued diCorcia in 1999, claiming that this published photograph violated his religion. He famously lost. Had the photographer sold the image to Coca-Cola to use in an ad, however, the verdict would have been entirely different.

A slight, and fair, caveat to the rule is that you can't wildly and willfully misrepresent the subjects. If you photograph a bunch of teenagers hanging out in Washington Square and publish the image with an unfounded and damaging caption like "teenage junkies," you could be held accountable for defamation."

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#69

I always found this issue to be confusing. There are literally hundreds of cameras tracking me every day: in the parking lot, in front of the ATM, when I buy my groceries… I have no ability to know when I’m being recorded or what happens to those recordings. Yet some people are upset if they get photographed by a human photographer in a public space. Is the only difference that the photo was taken with intent?

I don't think the issue is solely intent at the time the photo is taken. If I put up a CCTV camera in my brick and mortar business with the intent of having security footage in the event of a crime, but I subsequently review the footage, take some stills I think are funny, and put them on social media to build and entertain an audience, then I have pulled a kind of bait-and-switch. If people in or near my business reasonably assumed that the footage would be used specifically for security purposes, and are OK with being filmed for such a purpose, they may justifiably feel deceived.

I can be on-board with the arrangement that "You're on camera. We'll see you if you shoplift. But hopefully you're in a store where others are also weakly dissuaded away from shoplifting."

I might choose not to frequent a business where the deal is "Don't shoplift. But also, if you trip and fall maybe we'll cut a clip of you for the internet to laugh at."

Re: The sticky issue of consent in street photography

#70
post #48
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am strongly in favor of the right to photograph anything and anybody in public places, but from a moral/ethical/legal point of view, "intent" is indeed everything. You make it sound like it would be secondary and not really relevant, but for example, intent is the difference between murder and involuntary manslaughter. In candid street photography, I think what people fear is exactly that: bad intent, a willingness…

> In candid street photography, I think what people fear is exactly that: bad intent, a willingness of the photographer to exploit the images in order to show ridicule or maybe even obtain sexual gratification. That cuts both ways though -- I would be much more worried about the "intent" of someone looking up my face in particular and/or storing a database of millions of face-recognized surveillance videos than any p…

> storing a database of millions ... any possible malintent a human photographer could have

Then again, as a sibling comment pointed out, there's a decent chance these days that the individual human photographer casually puts the image of your face into Facebook/Instagram(/Google?)'s database.

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