Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Stroad

strongtowns.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 351 posts

Re: The Stroad

#61

Post by closeparen »

ehnto wrote: post #59
closeparen wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have lots of slow and calm streets in American suburbia, and we love them that way. We value this calm so much that we refuse to admit shopping or even multi-family housing to them, for fear of disturbing it. These uses have to go somewhere, so they go where there is no presumption of an entitlement to low traffic, and that’s the road. The businesses hardly complain; they love to be where the greatest numbers of e…

Mixed use medium density is my urban nirvana. Anywhere I have been with it just makes so much sense for daily life at person scale. Cars tricked us into thinking life can be comfortable spread across large distances and I think we are suffering in various ways for it. I am reminded of that cartoon where aliens arive on earth, and assume that cars are the dominant species, since so much of our world has been dedicated…

Suburbanites hate cars too, and that’s why they’ll never let you have mixed use. It would perhaps eliminate the snarl in commercial areas, but it would also bring some portion of that traffic into what are now quiet residential sanctuaries.

Re: The Stroad

#62

Post by quadrangle »

refurb wrote: post #52
_robbywashere wrote: post #21

I couldn’t agree more with the article. Unfortunately as for America I think people wouldn’t be very happy with turning their stroads into streets. There is a very toxic self centered car culture here; any impediment to it real or imaginary will make people very angry.

The truth is there isn't that much demand for high density housing and walkable neighborhoods. They are mostly attractive to young childless adults. Some of them stick around once they have kids, but it's rare and usually reserved for the well-off who can afford private schools and family-sized homes. In SF you've got the parents who are happy to put their kids and groceries on the back of their bike, but most look t…

It's mostly a case of people not knowing what they really want. Demand-driven economy has a place, but it's definitely not something to accept simplistically.

Famous examples: people wanted better horse-carriages and didn't anticipate cars. People wanted better keyboards on their blackberry-style phones, not an iPhone. Etc etc.

Nobody who experiences life in the Netherlands where biking and walking is actually safe ends up wishing they could return to stroad-style car-dependency. Everyone who says they prefer it is just saying that they don't know any better.

And any appeal to saying we have to keep making dangerous garbage sprawl because that's what people demand, that's disengenuous nonsense.

Strong Towns actually has the answer to this, the one that doesn't involve being condescending to people in sprawlville, USA. They point out that EVERYONE when you ask them about their priorities, especially for the streets where they live, they always say they care about safety, capacity, cost, and speed, basically in that order. But engineering assumptions put it more like speed, capacity, cost, safety.

(Wish I could give you the optimal link, but the one thing Strong Towns is weakest at is making it easy to find the right links in their enormous backlog of articles; the site search tool is really annoying; I know the concepts I'm mentioning are discussed multiple places, including in their two books)

Re: The Stroad

#63

Post by twelvechairs »

Needs a (2017) in title. This has been a very important article/concept in US planning circles. Personally I don't really like the street/stroad/road distinction but prefer the Transport for London 'movement and place' approach [0] which is clearer on necessary compromises. The end goal of both of course is to ensure traffic engineers (trained primarily in efficient car movements) take into account pedestrian considerations where pedestrians need to be, which have taken a back seat where there is any conflict with cars over the last 50 or so years.

[0] https://content.tfl.gov.uk/rtf-report-chapter-2-part-1.pdf

Re: The Stroad

#64

Post by ehnto »

hatchnyc wrote: post #14

Anytime I leave the city and spend a few days getting around by car I’m amazed at just how completely exhausting it is to go shopping or run errands in suburbia. I am not sure why exactly, after all I’m just sitting there, but I think all the stop-and-go and waiting 10 minutes at lights trying to get across a stroad intersection to a shop I can see the whole time is a big contributor.

I moved recently to where everything is a car drive away. The constant in an out of the car is exhausting. Not physically but mentally. Conter-intuitively because cars are also weather proof and comfortable, I felt a lot of the inertia is actually in getting out of the car. I found myself just waiting a little while before getting out. I am a fit and healthy individual and it is draining.

I tried the ride on and it's about an hour one way to work by bike, so I think I will get an e-bike. I have other physical training to do so I don't want to completely deplete myself by riding, but I still don't want to use the car.

Re: The Stroad

#65

Post by cozzyd »

novok wrote: post #16
smoldesu wrote: post #13

I'm not sold. I live on a so-called road, it's comprised of a single lane of paved dirt that stretches on for 3/4ths of a mile. On top of that, the very first line is just utterly comical: > If we want to build towns that are financially productive, we need to identify and eliminate stroads. You're missing the point on why they're made. They're built to facilitate expansion in confined areas. I'd argue that it's more…

You don't live on a road, you either live on a street or stroad. A road by definition does not have building access. Maybe your backyard faces a road, but you couldn't drive onto it with a car from there.

There are people who live on roads in rural areas (typically at the end of a long driveway that functions as a street, effectively).

Re: The Stroad

#66

Post by throwaway984393 »

Uh. What?

> The function of a street is to serve as a platform for building wealth

> the function of a road is to connect productive places

Is your house located on a street or a road? If it's on a street... how is wealth being built? And how is it not connecting productive places (your home to your office) ? And how is connecting productive places not building wealth?

This concept just doesn't make sense. Roads and streets are synonyms. Yes, I get that they have different definitions, but separating their usage actually leads to more problems than solutions.

"Make sure you look both ways when you cross the street." - So, I don't need to look both ways before crossing the road?

"There are so many potholes on the road." - So, are there none on the street?

"I think I will be late to work because of all the road works on the way." - So there's no works being done on the street?

"Kids, don't play in the street!" - Gotcha, we will just play in the road.

"No street level parking." - OK, but can I park on the road?

Re: The Stroad

#67

Post by bckr »

kryogen1c wrote: post #31
wffurr wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I end up on a five lane road with the center turning lane and tons of curb cuts and cross streets and abutting parking lots, I remind myself that it's one of the most dangerous places I am likely to be in.

> one of the most dangerous places I am likely to be in. i dont know how widely this turn of phrase is used, but where i grew up in the US, we called the middle turn lane in a 5 lane road the suicide lane.

The only other time I have heard that was during my driving test on small town California

Re: The Stroad

#68

Post by prawn »

chestervonwinch wrote: post #11
wffurr wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I end up on a five lane road with the center turning lane and tons of curb cuts and cross streets and abutting parking lots, I remind myself that it's one of the most dangerous places I am likely to be in.

Here in Austin Texas, we have lovely signs to remind you of your imminent crash! http://austintexas.gov/sites/default/files/files/Sign%201.JP...

Our equivalent in Australia is a Black Spot:

https://www.snowyvalleys.nsw.gov.au/News-Media/Brungle-Road-...

Re: The Stroad

#69

Post by quadrangle »

novok wrote: post #16
smoldesu wrote: post #13

I'm not sold. I live on a so-called road, it's comprised of a single lane of paved dirt that stretches on for 3/4ths of a mile. On top of that, the very first line is just utterly comical: > If we want to build towns that are financially productive, we need to identify and eliminate stroads. You're missing the point on why they're made. They're built to facilitate expansion in confined areas. I'd argue that it's more…

You don't live on a road, you either live on a street or stroad. A road by definition does not have building access. Maybe your backyard faces a road, but you couldn't drive onto it with a car from there.

these aren't simple absolute definitions; go around determining what is what, and you bump into reality. There are definite roads that have a few businesses and homes on them, particularly rural roads. They are still roads. It becomes a stroad when it's trying to still be for distance-travel but has constant homes/businesses/intersections. Between that and limited-access freeways, there's a fuzzy middle that is road-enough without being a stroad yet.

Re: The Stroad

#70

Post by cozzyd »

gruez wrote: post #58
eggsmediumrare wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likewise in Ontario. Strong term, but gets the point across. I also once saw a dump truck with stickers on either side of the tailgate. On the left, "passing side." On the right, "suicide." Had a big impact on my driving habits... I never, ever pass on the right.

That might make sense for dump trucks because they're bulky and have poor visibility, but what's the increased risk of passing on the right? The only thing I can think of is marginally worse visibility because the right side is slightly further away from the driver's seat. However, I don't think that's enough risk to justify going out of your way to pass on the right. Having to change lanes to pass on the left carrie…

On a 3+ lane road, it increases the risk of two people merging into each other as they both try to pass.
Post reply on HN