Without parental leave I might be dead • Hacker News Board

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#61

Post by lotsofpulp » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:45 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #59

KaiserPro wrote: post #28

I really cant understand the logic of forcing women back into work after 2-4 weeks. Its just not beneficial for anyone. The mum is utterly frazzled. The employer gets half an employee back Society is conditioned to think that the only practical way to raise a baby is to give up on work/get live in care. now, to look at it from a "my mum managed, I don't want to undermine the american nuclear family" point of view: Ye…

> Given that _every_ other "civilised" country has some sort of rudimentary care for new parents, which doesn't acutally cost that much, I can't see any reasonable objection to not having it. Giving a special benefit that will for the most part only be exercised by women discourages hiring women. You can still think its worth it, but don't pretend like you're baffled by anyone who would object or question how this im…

This graph shows the gender pay gap trending down in the UK since they implemented parental leave:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...

This graph shows women's employment rate trending up in the UK:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#62

Post by nix23 » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:45 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #56

nix23 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why it works (parental leave and universal health care) in the rest of the world but ~cannot not work in the US. Maybe the US is so focused on being "pure capitalist" that you forgot the peoples who are part of the system?

It works in other countries by having higher tax rates, lower incomes, smaller populations and less wealth inequality.

>higher tax rates

That's the secret sauce, and a smaller military

>lower incomes

That makes no sense, maybe don't sell your medicine for 10x more...but NO that would not be compatible with a pure capitalism

>and smaller populations

That's a NON argument

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#63

Post by letmeinhere » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #49

letmeinhere wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's...not what a Ponzi scheme is. Also, lol at entire population using roads at exactly the same rate, I've been subsidizing rural and exurban lifestyles my whole urban lifetime.

How is it not a Ponzi scheme? You need more people to fund the previous beneficiaries. You think the math works if the population never increases? Consider how you’d fund it if the population decreased and immigration did not exist.

So in your mind Charles Ponzi innovated the principle of factoring in the likelihood of growth into economic planning? And any investment that is premised on that growth is thus a Ponzi scheme? I guess we can use words however we want, sure.

Also, again, lol that roads pass this criteria. No expectation of growth and expanding tax bases there...

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#64

Post by giantg2 » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

While I agree that family leave is a good thing and needs some discussion about how to implement/fund it, I really dislike the title. It's a real stretch to claim that if she didn't have paid leave that she might be dead. The real root of the issue is that she should have been paying attention to her symptoms. One could even make the arguement that if she needed to go back to work sooner, that the symptoms would have been more disruptive and could have lead to addressing them even sooner. There are good arguments for family leave, but her story and the way she tells is not one of them.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#65

Post by TheAceOfHearts » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:48 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #59

KaiserPro wrote: post #28

I really cant understand the logic of forcing women back into work after 2-4 weeks. Its just not beneficial for anyone. The mum is utterly frazzled. The employer gets half an employee back Society is conditioned to think that the only practical way to raise a baby is to give up on work/get live in care. now, to look at it from a "my mum managed, I don't want to undermine the american nuclear family" point of view: Ye…

> Given that _every_ other "civilised" country has some sort of rudimentary care for new parents, which doesn't acutally cost that much, I can't see any reasonable objection to not having it. Giving a special benefit that will for the most part only be exercised by women discourages hiring women. You can still think its worth it, but don't pretend like you're baffled by anyone who would object or question how this im…

Agreed, this sounds like a very good reason to ensure parental leave is available for both men and women.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#66

Post by mschuster91 » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:48 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #60

KaiserPro wrote: post #28

I really cant understand the logic of forcing women back into work after 2-4 weeks. Its just not beneficial for anyone. The mum is utterly frazzled. The employer gets half an employee back Society is conditioned to think that the only practical way to raise a baby is to give up on work/get live in care. now, to look at it from a "my mum managed, I don't want to undermine the american nuclear family" point of view: Ye…

Who is forcing women back to work?

Reality. Way too many people only can make ends meet by both partners being full-time employed - and in some cases (such as shown by a recent Last Week Tonight episode) even that is not enough to prevent being homeless.

Rents are too high, and wages are too low.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#67

Post by moron4hire » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:48 PM UTC

wastedhours wrote: post #11

bko wrote: post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

> most men take only a fraction of the allowed time I truly don't understand this, and each time I see the stats on it sit in even greater disbelief. Why would anyone turn down the opportunity to spend, for an awful lot of companies, fully paid time off work to spend time with their new family? Guessing I'm much less "career-minded" than of lot of these guys, but it makes zero sense to me that you wouldn't stretch th…

When I took mine, I was told it was at a particularly convenient time because I had just started at the company (Deloitte, so huge corp) so wasn't deeply embedded in any projects yet, plus my billable time ratio "doesn't count in your first year".

I still got a lot of pressure from my bosses to cut it short and work part time while I was out. One of them even questioned my "loyalty to the team" at a holiday party that I attended in the middle of it (I went specifically because I wanted to get face time with people and not be distant).

The way a lot of corporations work, you have the "policy", and then you have management interpreting that policy. Things like leave of any kind might be technically "guaranteed", but they come at a cost of fewer individual contributions to projects and lower billable rates. And, at the end of the day, you report to someone who only cares about his budget, who has control over your project assignments.

So after that, suddenly my first year was only 6 months long (something something fiscal year), and it did count (blah blah blah pattern extrapolation) and I wasn't getting good assignments (constantly set up to fail, and even though I always pulled it off, I'd get terrible reviews for the smallest of issues). Eventually, I got "laid off". Really, I was fired because my billable rates was too low (and my billable rate was low due to retaliation for having slightly more going on in my life than living at work), but the company schedules regular layoffs to axe the lowest x% of employees. I guess that is one silver lining of that awful, Metropolis-esque machine: they gave me a (very small) severance on the way out.

So yeah. You can have a company "guarantee" leave, but still will structure a reason to get rid of you.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#68

Post by bko » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

speedgoose wrote: post #55

bko wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, saying "other countries do it" isn't really an answer. That's like saying why are incomes in Mexico so much lower than the US? Just do what the US does. In fact, Mexico has 12 weeks. And Greece has 40. I'd rather be a parent in the US than Greece or Mexico. Policies don't exist in a vacuum.

Why US can't have better parental leave policies when Greece, France, or Mexico can?

> Nevertheless, the participation of Greek women in the labour market continues to be 8-10 percent below the average of E.U. countries

Unemployment in Greece is nearly triple what it is in the US (14%).

Policies don't exist in a vacuum. Everything has trade offs. Until you accept that you'll never have a productive honest conversation.

[0] https://ideas.repec.org/p/wiw/wiwrsa/ersa06p257.html

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#69

Post by zarzavat » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

helge9210 wrote: post #2

I really can't understand how can a newborn be separated from his mother at the age of 12 weeks.

At the intersection of capitalism and feminism.

On one end of the spectrum you have certain European countries where women receive ample maternity leave. The right to have a family is protected by law.

On the other end of the spectrum you have certain countries where married women are not expected to work. The right to have a family is protected by traditional beliefs and customs.

But there is this nasty area in the middle where married women are expected to work but there's few workers rights - having a family becomes a privilege rather than a right.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#70

Post by TheCapn » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

My first child is due January.

I sat down with my boss about a month or so ago and told him I'm intending to take parental leave. "No problem" he said, I told him my intention was to take the full 8 weeks I'm entitled to. He didn't say anything right away to that... eventually it was more of a "...that's not typical for the guys around here"

We did a bit of back and forth. (I think he went to HR to find out he can't really deny that) and we've come to an agreement that works for both of us.

But honestly... I'm quite shocked at just how atypical it is for fathers to ask for, and get time off to care for their newborn. Not even just the child, the mother needs support early on too.

I've given a lot of myself to this company, and they've done a tremendous amount for me as well. So I do have a small sense of loyalty to them and don't want to leave them hard up on my absence. But if this helps my boss understand that we should hire extra hands for the times when I'm not available, this is a long term benefit overall as I see it. I'm hoping 8 weeks leave help me reset and address some of my anxieties about the work load. I hope it lets my coworkers understand exactly what level of shit I help shelter them from.

...and if none of that works out. I've already got a friend trying to poach me to a new business. Win/win in my eyes.

Thanks for listening to my rant.