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The brain can recall and reawaken past immune responses

quantamagazine.org

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Re: The brain can recall and reawaken past immune responses

#61

Post by jerf »

phonypc wrote: post #52
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think modern-day type of sustained, prolonged stress is just not something we've experienced much of prior to x,000 years ago, so there are simply no failure modes evolved yet.

Like x000 years ago when war and famine were always looming threats? Or further back when predators and inclement weather were? I can't imagine life in the distant past being less stressful.

A lot of the bad aspects of the stress response come from prolonged periods of not being able to do anything about it. If your village is raided, and you escape unharmed, you will be very stressed for a short period of time, but generally return to your baseline quickly after that. That's normal. That's what "stress" is for.

The modern world has the ability to stress you out over things you can do nothing about (or at least, not very directly and quickly), for long periods of time. Sit down and watch three hours a day for a week of whichever news channel pisses you off the most if you want to see. Some of you reading this already do that, so you may not even notice how pointlessly stressed that makes you because that's how you live. It also has a bunch of other humans who find it advantageous to stress you out that way and bend a lot of time and effort to the task of continually stressing you out, because they prefer that you not be able to carefully think about things but that you react less thoughtfully. You spend more money that way, among other effects.

Past life would spike the stress levels more often, sure, but it generally lacks the low-grade continual stress you can't do anything about. The exceptions that leap to mind (sieges! famine!) would generally be exactly that, exceptions. And in those cases... I'm sure the continual stress of sieges and famines wouldn't be good for them, either!

Re: The brain can recall and reawaken past immune responses

#62

Post by datameta »

vkk8 wrote: post #47
lloeki wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(don't want to put words in GP's mouth, this is my interpretation of it, and my experience) I do skateboarding and had multiple ankle sprains. What happens every single time is that the wound heals, physiotherapy proceeds and strengthens the whole joint system, and then I'm left with an ankle that is still in pain when it should not physically be anymore since it has fully recovered. That is, until I literally "decid…

In the (power)lifting scene, I have really enjoyed the articles by Austin Baraki et al. from Barbell Medicine on pains and aches in the context of physical activities. See for example https://startingstrength.com/article/aches-and-pains or https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/the-barbell-medicine-gu... In a nutshell, the idea that there's a straightforward causal link between something being physically broken in your…

I dont know about rapidly resuming the activity that caused the injury, but I totally agree that stopping all activity to exclusively rest and recover is terrible. You have to try to walk a bit at the very least.

I participated in a chronic pain study where I personally learned that there are times, much more often than not, that one should not second-guess their joint that is having a flare-up and continue to walk a similar amount each day. I can't overstate how empowering it is to not be in a thought loop on a case by case basis and trust the learned system.

Increased blood flow, released endorphins, usage of muscle, flexing of connective tissues and operation of joints often addresses the issue (if it is not an acute injury that really does need our body's regenerative abilities). We evolved to walk.

Re: The brain can recall and reawaken past immune responses

#63

Post by 0xdeadb00f »

tdrdt wrote: post #40
kortex wrote: post #36

I've heard it phrased "Stress wrecks the body in strange ways." It is one of the best aphorisms I've been given. A physiologist friend told me this years ago when I was remarking how it seems like psychological stress seems to cause every subsystem of the body to freak out, yet there's no obvious connection between these things - why should the brain, which is evolutionarily "late", affect such deep subsystems? This…

This is also the reason why a lock-down against a virus is not always the best option for healthy people. A lock-down causes stress and this weakens the immune system. Personally I think it is obvious why the connection between stress and 'subsystems' is there. Stress puts the body into survival mode. Heavy breathing is an example. But when the stress holds on for too long it exhausts your body causing all kinds of t…

Lockdowns comfort me, knowing that I have less chance to get (and spread, if I do happen to have it) the virus if I'm not out and about.

Re: The brain can recall and reawaken past immune responses

#64

Post by DoreenMichele »

freeest-will wrote: post #58
DoreenMichele wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A placebo is a substance or treatment which is designed to have no therapeutic value. Common placebos include inert tablets (like sugar pills)... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo Not to say Wikipedia is infallible. I'm sure it's not. Just checking how clueless I am and the internet suggests my understanding is "common knowledge." Perhaps you can share more of your knowledge about what placebo pills typically c…

> For example, in the COVID-19 vaccine developed by the University of Oxford, the control group receives a meningitis and septicaemia vaccine as a placebo. > The benefit of using an actual vaccine as the placebo control is that it will cause a similar reaction at the site of the injection as the COVID-19 vaccine, such as muscle pain and soreness. This prevents patients from knowing whether they are getting the placeb…

Thank you.

Re: The brain can recall and reawaken past immune responses

#65

Post by DoreenMichele »

datameta wrote: post #62
vkk8 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the (power)lifting scene, I have really enjoyed the articles by Austin Baraki et al. from Barbell Medicine on pains and aches in the context of physical activities. See for example https://startingstrength.com/article/aches-and-pains or https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/the-barbell-medicine-gu... In a nutshell, the idea that there's a straightforward causal link between something being physically broken in your…

I dont know about rapidly resuming the activity that caused the injury, but I totally agree that stopping all activity to exclusively rest and recover is terrible. You have to try to walk a bit at the very least. I participated in a chronic pain study where I personally learned that there are times, much more often than not, that one should not second-guess their joint that is having a flare-up and continue to walk a…

Physical activity -- muscle movement -- also increases the flow of interstitial fluid back to the circulatory system. This is how the body "takes out the trash" which is essential to the healing process.

I have a serious medical condition. I sometimes go for a short walk when I feel awful because I know from long experience that doing so frequently makes me feel better and I've gotten good at telling when I feel awful in a way that will likely be helped by taking a walk.

Re: The brain can recall and reawaken past immune responses

#66

Post by datameta »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #65
datameta wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont know about rapidly resuming the activity that caused the injury, but I totally agree that stopping all activity to exclusively rest and recover is terrible. You have to try to walk a bit at the very least. I participated in a chronic pain study where I personally learned that there are times, much more often than not, that one should not second-guess their joint that is having a flare-up and continue to walk a…

Physical activity -- muscle movement -- also increases the flow of interstitial fluid back to the circulatory system. This is how the body "takes out the trash" which is essential to the healing process. I have a serious medical condition. I sometimes go for a short walk when I feel awful because I know from long experience that doing so frequently makes me feel better and I've gotten good at telling when I feel awfu…

This connects the dots even further! I had a time where I went on a walk and thought it would be an extremely short one. After I thought I had been hitting the wall and I was sure I was making it worse, my joint started feeling much better. I extended the walk and returned feeling like the flare-up I had been experiencing before the walk had rapidly dissipated. That was a defining learning moment for me.

Re: The brain can recall and reawaken past immune responses

#67

Post by GhettoComputers »

Neurons and the immune system are deeply linked. They found that anxiety is caused by a weak immune system and strengthening the immune system will lower anxiety.

They have been injecting viruses into animal brains and doing gain of function edits on viruses for understanding fear responses in mammals and making them more infectious to mice and apes to study their brains after viral infection. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4568141/

>The use of viral vector technology to deliver short hairpin RNAs (shRNAs) to cells of the nervous system of many model organisms has been widely utilized by neuroscientists to study the influence of genes on behavior. However, there have been numerous reports that delivering shRNAs to the nervous system can lead to neurotoxicity. Here we report the results of a series of experiments where adeno-associated viruses (AAV), that were engineered to express shRNAs designed to target known plasticity associated genes (i.e. Arc, Egr1 and GluN2A) or control shRNAs that were designed not to target any rat gene product for depletion, were delivered to the rat basal and lateral nuclei of the amygdala (BLA), and auditory Pavlovian fear conditioning was examined.

If anyone doubts the effects of infection on the brain and just says its just a mouse experiment consider the effect of mental effects of untreated syphilis. Its been observed throughout history. They only do experiments on rodents but many have been "humanized" like giving them genetic diseases like making rats that are genetically prone to depression, obesity or having fatty liver disease. They have even used human stem cells to transplant human livers into rats. https://www.upmcphysicianresources.com/news/060220-mini-live...

Re: The brain can recall and reawaken past immune responses

#68

Post by DoreenMichele »

Kye wrote: post #51
native_samples wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it a rather disturbing phenomenon, to be honest. Governments, scientists and media insist that we place enormous faith in the outputs of medical trials and studies. Anyone who expresses doubt about these is ostracised and forced to comply regardess. Yet every single one of them has to control for this entirely mysterious, inexplicable force that magically heals people with no actual medicine. This effect is so…

It's not like they don't try to figure it out. But as you said: >> "This effect is so real, large and standard that it's mandated by law to take it into account yet we understand basically nothing about it" What would you prefer doctors do? Not use life-saving and life-improving treatments that are proven more effective than placebo after rigorous trials just because they don't understand it 100%?

The problem is we currently tend to ignore certain biases in our process which are known to introduce errors. Once it becomes a recommended medical practice that medical professionals use, medical opinion often trumps common sense and patients have trouble defending themselves even when they, personally, are certain this is harming them.

Doctors will outright suggest you are mentally ill and need to see a therapist if your life is on the line, you aren't satisfied with their course of treatment and you question what they are doing and/or express concerns that this could kill you. Once they more or less declare you crazy for questioning them, you lose even more control over your body, your health, your life and your right to actively make decisions for yourself.

There is definitely room for improvement in our current process.

Re: The brain can recall and reawaken past immune responses

#69

Post by DoreenMichele »

datameta wrote: post #66
DoreenMichele wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physical activity -- muscle movement -- also increases the flow of interstitial fluid back to the circulatory system. This is how the body "takes out the trash" which is essential to the healing process. I have a serious medical condition. I sometimes go for a short walk when I feel awful because I know from long experience that doing so frequently makes me feel better and I've gotten good at telling when I feel awfu…

This connects the dots even further! I had a time where I went on a walk and thought it would be an extremely short one. After I thought I had been hitting the wall and I was sure I was making it worse, my joint started feeling much better. I extended the walk and returned feeling like the flare-up I had been experiencing before the walk had rapidly dissipated. That was a defining learning moment for me.

You might find this comment of interest:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25427090

Re: The brain can recall and reawaken past immune responses

#70

Post by datameta »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #69
datameta wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This connects the dots even further! I had a time where I went on a walk and thought it would be an extremely short one. After I thought I had been hitting the wall and I was sure I was making it worse, my joint started feeling much better. I extended the walk and returned feeling like the flare-up I had been experiencing before the walk had rapidly dissipated. That was a defining learning moment for me.

You might find this comment of interest: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25427090

Thank you!!
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