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The data behind New York's increasingly dirty electricity peaks

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Re: The data behind New York's increasingly dirty electricity peaks

#61

Post by dane-pgp »

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #9
99_00 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a battery technology on the market that can be used at scale or do we need to wait for this to be invented?

The fella who invented lithium ion batteries invented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_battery https://spectrum.ieee.org/john-goodenough-glass-battery-news... Quebec hydro is actually developing it to go to grid scale. They have much better performance and none of the problems. In fact the early evidence is that the batteries somehow get better over time.

If that all sounds too good to be true, it's worth reading what other battery experts have to say about these claims. For example:

> The ninth research paper in Braga and Goodenough's "glass battery" work regrettably shows many of the hallmarks of pathological science. ... ad hoc theory, violations of the laws of thermodynamics, basic mistakes, disregard for established knowledge, absent or invalid chemical characterisation and, when all is said and done, devices that don't work the way they're said to.

http://lacey.se/2020/03/13/braga-goodenough-glass-battery-pa...

Re: The data behind New York's increasingly dirty electricity peaks

#62

Post by Krssst »

zdragnar wrote: post #3

I appreciate the analysis, though I am not sure that any of the results should surprise anyone. - NY is moving away from nuclear (counted under "clean") - none of the "clean" sources can easily scale on demand. Sun, wind, hydro and nuclear have either fixed or random output - all peaker plants and less-desirable and so less-fully-maximized sources fall under the dirty category. Sun not providing enough juice? Ramp up…

> none of the "clean" sources can easily scale on demand. Sun, wind, hydro and nuclear have either fixed or random output

Hydro can do load following. Nuclear can too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_following_power_plant#L...

Re: The data behind New York's increasingly dirty electricity peaks

#63

Post by Hypx_ »

q1w2 wrote: post #37
cbhl wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe "pumped water" is the currently available battery technology that has the capacities required, but I'm under the impression that it can't scale further (new dams / loss of green space)

Any form of storage will have poor efficiency compared to primary production, particularly pumped water. We're talking about under 50% efficiency. Moreover, you need an absolute MASSIVE amount of storage to make intermittent sources like solar and wind equivalent to baseload power. In winter months, solar in New York will produce less than 5% what the same facility will produce in the summer. Shorter days, lower sun,…

Hydrogen could potentially offer a solution to this: https://www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/equinor...

Such projects could scale to a large enough size to solve the intermittency problem.

Re: The data behind New York's increasingly dirty electricity peaks

#64

Post by Hypx_ »

99_00 wrote: post #5
zdragnar wrote: post #3

I appreciate the analysis, though I am not sure that any of the results should surprise anyone. - NY is moving away from nuclear (counted under "clean") - none of the "clean" sources can easily scale on demand. Sun, wind, hydro and nuclear have either fixed or random output - all peaker plants and less-desirable and so less-fully-maximized sources fall under the dirty category. Sun not providing enough juice? Ramp up…

Is there a battery technology on the market that can be used at scale or do we need to wait for this to be invented?

It's basically the "hydrogen-air" battery or hydrogen fuel cell. Although a short cut is to burn the hydrogen in gas turbines. We can store many GWh for months on end: https://www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/equinor...

Re: The data behind New York's increasingly dirty electricity peaks

#65

Post by blibble »

zdragnar wrote: post #3

I appreciate the analysis, though I am not sure that any of the results should surprise anyone. - NY is moving away from nuclear (counted under "clean") - none of the "clean" sources can easily scale on demand. Sun, wind, hydro and nuclear have either fixed or random output - all peaker plants and less-desirable and so less-fully-maximized sources fall under the dirty category. Sun not providing enough juice? Ramp up…

France operates nuclear power stations in load following mode rather successfully

Re: The data behind New York's increasingly dirty electricity peaks

#66

Post by klyrs »

tristor wrote: post #38
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are they moving away from nuclear? They have a 100% carbon free target, which doesn't exclude nuclear and they intend to introduce a carbon price, which lets nuclear fight on an even ground with other carbon reduction moves. I guess it just didn't make sense financially?

> Why are they moving away from nuclear? Because in the US, Twitter determines policy priorities, not science or reason.

My understanding of the situation is that it's a generational thing. Millenials and younger see nuclear power as much more appealing than folks over 40. So, not twitter.

Re: The data behind New York's increasingly dirty electricity peaks

#67

Post by [deleted] »

bingohbangoh wrote: post #22
99_00 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a battery technology on the market that can be used at scale or do we need to wait for this to be invented?

Some mines use molten salt batteries. [0] I'm surprised they've never been recommended for power grids but I'm probably missing something. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-salt_battery

[deleted]

Re: The data behind New York's increasingly dirty electricity peaks

#68

Post by adrianN »

dredmorbius wrote: post #57
99_00 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a battery technology on the market that can be used at scale or do we need to wait for this to be invented?

We know the fundamental physics and chemistry. Your largest-scaling options are thermal storage (molten-salt thermal, not to be confused with molten-salt electric batteries), compressed air energy storage (CAES), and pumped-hydro. The last as with hydroelectric dams is limited by available sites and environmental impacts. Any thermal storage or thermal-process generation (e.g., molten salt thermal storage, synfuel-ba…

Electrolysis can actually be done at above 70% efficiency. 80% efficiency methods are available. You unfortunately lose some additional energy when compressing the Hydrogen for storage, or when you turn it into Methane for storage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production#Electrolys...

Re: The data behind New York's increasingly dirty electricity peaks

#69

Post by 7thaccount »

jplr8922 wrote: post #31

Note : I am an ex quantitative and algorithmic power trader in the NYISO market I totally agree with the analysis and conclusion of this article. The power grid is is a complex legal, economic and engineering system where our usual political narratives cannot produce a valid analogy for our common understanding. Right now, most green power sources (except non run-of-the-mill hydro) have non-controlable and hardly pre…

How did you like being a trader?

Re: The data behind New York's increasingly dirty electricity peaks

#70

Post by 99_00 »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #28
99_00 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's great that this is being experimented with, and this doesn't look like a solution that is ready to be deployed at scale. What is the carbon emissions per kwh, cost per kwh, etc. I'm not saying that the company building this needs to give those answers. But if this is part of the solution for climate change, those things will need to be known and reasonable.

> What is the carbon emissions per kwh The raw materials are lithium, potassium and iron. All are abundant but require significant energy to extract. So if we have a clean grid they can be produced with almost no carbon emissions. So if using "dirty" batteries is necessary to create the clean grid, it's still a massive win.

>if we have a clean grid they can be produced with almost no carbon emissions

Everything is possible. But not everything is practical.

Energy density matters. Especially in industrial applications.

For example, electric passenger vehicles are a great solution because the weight of passengers is negligible.

Electric semis hauling freight? Not so much. The payload has to be reduced by a significant amount because the battery is so damn big.

I don't know what the extraction process involves, but I've been to a few mines. Truck, the size of a house moving massive loads. And lots of big stationary machines, which I assume are already electric powdered.

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