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A talk with Walter Bright about Empire

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Re: A talk with Walter Bright about Empire

#61

Post by kbenson »

WalterBright wrote: post #54
kbenson wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's less that the US doesn't have those, it's just that they have both types, and they also mix them. Seinfeld wouldn't have been half as good as it was without you knowing the character and how they would react to specific situations. I think part of what you're identifying about first episodes is maybe a difference in style between the US and UK. A lot of UK comedy definitely seems like the characters are…

The first few Seinfeld episodes are pretty lame compared to when the series hit its stride.

I think that's an example of what I'm saying. Rather than the characters being mostly realized by the writing, they let the characters and actors grow into specific parts together.

Re: A talk with Walter Bright about Empire

#62

Post by wolverine876 »

> My interest in Empire is not so much playing it anymore, it's devising a better computer strategy. I'm a lot more experienced in how to do such things today, and the temptation is strong to go do it. But I need to focus on my compiler stuff.

Please, karma grant me this wish: ...

Re: A talk with Walter Bright about Empire

#63

Post by int_19h »

WalterBright wrote: post #3

Walter here! AMA!

D is one of the few mainstream languages today that support Design by Contract (https://dlang.org/spec/contracts.html), and I remember it being a prominent language feature all the way to pre-1.0.

The only other major language I can think of that's still actively used is Ada in its more recent incarnations. Eiffel didn't get much traction, and .NET dropped System.Diagnostics.Contracts recently due to lack of usage. C++ had some proposals that didn't go anywhere, if I remember correctly. Java has some AOP-based third party solutions for it, but nothing is in the core language, nor any plans for it.

Why do you think that is? I don't see what's wrong with DbC conceptually, and having (effectively) formalized specs helps both document the code better, and catch bugs.

Re: A talk with Walter Bright about Empire

#64

Post by mhh__ »

int_19h wrote: post #63
WalterBright wrote: post #3

Walter here! AMA!

D is one of the few mainstream languages today that support Design by Contract ( https://dlang.org/spec/contracts.html ), and I remember it being a prominent language feature all the way to pre-1.0. The only other major language I can think of that's still actively used is Ada in its more recent incarnations. Eiffel didn't get much traction, and .NET dropped System.Diagnostics.Contracts recently due to lack of usage.…

People don't bother using them. Walter gave a hits & misses talk a while back and I believe he classified contracts as a miss.

I do really like them. In certain situations they are actually useful to the optimizer too, saves some branches on array length alignment for example.

Re: A talk with Walter Bright about Empire

#65

Post by spaetzleesser »

WalterBright wrote: post #39
spaetzleesser wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sad that we still don't have an idea how to produce high g-forces in a simulator. The feeling of going with a car through a turn at 2g is incomparable to the simulators we have. Never mind F1 cars that can corner and brake at up to 5g.

It can be done, you'd just need a big playground for the machine - about the size of an F1 track!

With enough money you can actually go to such a “simulator”. There are these guys that run older F1 cars on tracks. The teams provide pit crews and everything else. If you can afford it, definitely a nice hobby!

I got to drive a car with aerodynamic downforce only once and it’s super impressive to feel how it works better the faster you go. Cornering with 2g is also pretty nice.

Re: A talk with Walter Bright about Empire

#66

Post by int_19h »

mhh__ wrote: post #64
int_19h wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

D is one of the few mainstream languages today that support Design by Contract ( https://dlang.org/spec/contracts.html ), and I remember it being a prominent language feature all the way to pre-1.0. The only other major language I can think of that's still actively used is Ada in its more recent incarnations. Eiffel didn't get much traction, and .NET dropped System.Diagnostics.Contracts recently due to lack of usage.…

People don't bother using them. Walter gave a hits & misses talk a while back and I believe he classified contracts as a miss. I do really like them. In certain situations they are actually useful to the optimizer too, saves some branches on array length alignment for example.

Yes, but why people don't bother using them? It can't just be an aversion to verbosity, since people do write unit tests - many of which could have been contracts instead. And it seems like there's increased interest in preventing bugs through more rigorous static code analysis these days (Rust etc), so why doesn't it come up in that context?

Re: A talk with Walter Bright about Empire

#67

Post by WalterBright »

cybernautique wrote: post #59
WalterBright wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advice for the novice. Hmm. Best advice I can give is ignore your critics and everyone who tells you it can't be done, you're not good enough, you'll inevitably fail. Market research has always led me astray. Making things that simply please myself have been far, far more successful. Which is my favorite language? D, of course! As for why, it's the language I always wanted to program in, though I didn't realize it an…

I've listened to the two interviews you have published, and I intend to work my way through your publications. I'm currently in love with OCaml, but I'm resolving that D should be my next language. Funnily enough, I'd already downloaded it a few months ago; I have a dedicated flash drive for storing compilers, it was a very pleasant surprise to find Walter Bright already chilling in my memory. I loved the podcast you…

I figure critical mass is if I get run over by a bus, D will continue just fine. I don't know what that point is.

Many D community members do consultancy and education. Just drop by the forums and ask!

The copyright assignment thing is just so that the source will be unencumbered and we can ensure it remains fully Open Source.

I never offer suggestions for low hanging fruit anymore, as not a single person took them. I just point at the forums, hang out, and you'll soon find something interesting to work on.

There's also the learn forum:

https://forum.dlang.org/group/learn

Re: A talk with Walter Bright about Empire

#68

Post by WalterBright »

int_19h wrote: post #66
mhh__ wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't bother using them. Walter gave a hits & misses talk a while back and I believe he classified contracts as a miss. I do really like them. In certain situations they are actually useful to the optimizer too, saves some branches on array length alignment for example.

Yes, but why people don't bother using them? It can't just be an aversion to verbosity, since people do write unit tests - many of which could have been contracts instead. And it seems like there's increased interest in preventing bugs through more rigorous static code analysis these days (Rust etc), so why doesn't it come up in that context?

People find it easier to just put asserts into the main body.

The distinguishing feature of Contract Programming is how it handles inheritance. But OOP isn't as pervasive as it used to be.

Re: A talk with Walter Bright about Empire

#69

Post by OJFord »

kbenson wrote: post #28
OJFord wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That pretty much sums up American vs. British comedy (televisual anyway) for me. US: 'momentarily interesting' (resp. funny at the time) - series of one-liners and the like; UK: character development, hard to explain why it's funny, might take 'getting into'. Green Wing for example - I thought it was absolutely absurd when I first saw it, and it is. But for some reason I went back to it (or was made to) and stuck wit…

I think it's less that the US doesn't have those, it's just that they have both types, and they also mix them. Seinfeld wouldn't have been half as good as it was without you knowing the character and how they would react to specific situations. I think part of what you're identifying about first episodes is maybe a difference in style between the US and UK. A lot of UK comedy definitely seems like the characters are…

I hope it's clear enough that I'm not disparaging US comedy. There's plenty of it I enjoy.

I think a key point I started making but didn't really conclude is that British comedies stay with me; I can quote them, accidentally fall into their characters like an eccentric myself, enjoy them without re-watching them. Monty Python; Fawlty Towers; Reggie Perrin; The Office; Green Wing; Dad's Army; et alia.

I think the closest I can come to that sort of absent enjoyment with US TV comedy is to imagine April Ludgate's (Parks & Recreation) face in reaction to something.

Maybe it's partly that US comedy veers more visual & slapstick? Certainly not all of it, there's very little in general, I commented on that in a recent thread on Airplane!, but that too is American of course. Though I'm not sure how well Fawlty Towers would work audio-only.

Re: A talk with Walter Bright about Empire

#70

Post by B1FF_PSUVM »

WalterBright wrote: post #8
gavinray wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Walter -- you've been in the game a long, long time. One of the first (the first?) commercial C++ compilers. 1. As a 20-something whose first (real) experience coding was Visual Basic in Visual Studio 2008, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts/take on "lessons we've forgotten" or things programmers nowadays think is something new, but is just an old thing being re-discovered/re-branded. 2. Also interested to hear…

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not sure about lessons forgotten, but there are definitely lessons never learned. One is the use of macros in programming languages. Macros are one of those great ideas that seem almost miraculous. They provide immense power to the programmer. Unfortunately, the dahk side of macros inevitably consumes the user. The macros inevitably become so confusing, pervasive and complex that the aut…

> One is the use of macros in programming languages.

Macros killed the Lisp. They never noticed.

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