FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh • Hacker News Board

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#61

Post by tomc1985 » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

handrous wrote: post #50

dekhn wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

personally, I don't have interest in zsh because bash is the default shell in Linux, which is the UNIX system I use (I find mac's unix to be really a weird variant). Mac switching to zsh is just more evidence they're diverting from the mainstream.

> I find mac's unix to be really a weird variant It's closer to BSD than it is to Linux. Not super similar, but closer, especially in ways one tends to notice on the command line.

It still sticks pretty close to BSD. I am seeing a ton of (entirely natural) similarity since I started seriously playing with FreeBSD

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#62

Post by tomc1985 » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

readingnews wrote: post #6

I am not a freebsd user, been on linux since 1992, but most of the time I read something about freebsd users and it seems like they want to be some older unix, like Solaris or True64 or something.

I want it to be a more-simple Linux without so many competing choices or moving parts, and it largely succeeds on that front.

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#63

Post by spookthesunset » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

readingnews wrote: post #6

I am not a freebsd user, been on linux since 1992, but most of the time I read something about freebsd users and it seems like they want to be some older unix, like Solaris or True64 or something.

Naw. FreeBSD feels like a cohesive whole, if that makes sense. All the basic stuff in it all work together. Comparatively, Linux is a pile of parts strapped together with tape.

Plus the documentation for FreeBSD is much, much better. For one thing, no pushing me to use that god awful “infodoc” crap.

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#64

Post by pjmlp » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

readingnews wrote: post #6

I am not a freebsd user, been on linux since 1992, but most of the time I read something about freebsd users and it seems like they want to be some older unix, like Solaris or True64 or something.

BSDs are UNIX.

https://www.amazon.com/Design-Implementation-FreeBSD-Operati...

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#65

Post by jmclnx » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

xenophonf wrote: post #27

A die-hard tcsh user myself, I mourn the end of an era, but has anyone done serious scripting in the C shell? I jokingly call it a sin in the eyes of the LORD, but seriously, it really, really sucks compared to even just the POSIX shell. It's probably time for me to finally give into Bash or zsh or something equally modern. Might be nice to get access to all of those shell completion hooks some tools have—not because…

I am sad to hear FreeBSD is changing root from tcsh to sh (FreeBSD moved from csh to tcsh a while ago).

It was one of the things that made FreeBSD unique. I guess the got sick of hearing this question: "can I change the root shell to bash ?". I think they were the last holdout of the BSDs.

But to me, if you care what root's shell is, you are doing something wrong by using root way too often.

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#66

Post by corndoge » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #47

reacharavindh wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's delicate. The noob me chased after new tricks with much more enthusiasm than the current me. Over time, priorities change, and now I just want to get stuff done and for tools to get out of the way. I'd appreciate new tricks that bring quite a lot of benefit to my workflow, but the little tricks I'd rather let fly past me. If the tools such as base environment changes way too often, I'd be annoyed as well - not b…

I totally understand that, I'm not a young mind anymore, and I get that most of these are pointless superficial tricks. I spend most of my days venting about the state of computing (especially since web2.0 came and replaced a lot of stuff with bloated regressions in many offices) But I considered readline a good addition, not a waste of time and neurons. ps: I stopped using zsh/fish, my emacs theme is the vanilla the…

I work half as fast without fish completions. matters to some people

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#67

Post by jmclnx » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

bombcar wrote: post #9

WalterGR wrote: post #3

In the recent history sh(1) has gain the missing features for it to become a usable interractive shell: - command completion - ... Too much bloat for my tastes.

Doesn’t command completion cause a disk scan? Which can be a problem if the system is failing in some way and you’re trying to recover.

Maybe in sh type shells. In csh/tcsh commands are hashed, so command completion is in memory. Thus the need for rehash.

There is a new setting in tcsh to allow for automatic rehash, but I have it disabled.

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#68

Post by 1500100900 » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

markstos wrote: post #20

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #7

So am I reading correctly that they wanted to use sh for a while, and it just finally got needed features? This message says "what" but not "why", and while as a user I prefer sh over csh:), I'm curious why the project switched.

A POSIX-compatible shell like `sh` is a given. `csh` is not POSIX-compatible. By dropping `csh`, the the base system could be smaller. Since the usability of `sh` has improved, it was considered worth switching.

On top of that, most people expect syntax somewhat similar to Bourne shell and tcsh is far from such. Its for loop syntax is especially surprising.

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#69

Post by 1500100900 » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 4:30 PM UTC

0mp wrote: post #40

gigatexal wrote: post #30

Why not just go to Bash or ZSH?

Those are not part of the base system.

And for good reason. If people already call command completion bloat, imagine the uproar if they found out that bash or zsh is built in and the default shell.

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#70

Post by arp242 » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 4:32 PM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #25

agumonkey wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That says a thing or too about habits. Was he pissed or was it just a light comment ? I'd be sad to see an educated person refuse interesting new tricks (readline causes no regression or loss right ?)

he was pissed! and, really didn't like terminal colors when you ran 'ls' (so I showed how to unalias ls) At this point I don't want to learn any new tricks, either. I'm sticking with bash for the rest of my life.

I would guess that he was mostly pissed that things "just changed" without being asked. While these sort of things like the up arrow seem like a no-brainer to many here, showing up for work on Monday and having everything just be different sucks. It's a bad experience, and I can't really blame him for being annoyed.

A lot of times people would be a lot more receptive if you show them "hey, you can use the up arrow like so if you want!" Then they can choose and adapt at their own pace if they want to, and they're in control of their own systems.