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Warren Buffett has me Confused

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Re: Warren Buffett has me Confused

#61
post #18

Wow, I think my group should pay its fair share (paraphrasing) OK, lets do little example. Suppose a large group of your friends a pizza and half the people just hadn't paid. Would you say "hey, I'll pay for all these people" or "hey, we all need to pay our fair share". How hard is that to understand?

If I'm out with my friends, you're damn right I'd want to pay for the ones struggling with a minimum-wage job and consider that to be my fair share.

You missed the point. That's exactly what Buffet wants. In the pizza example, the people who are not paying their fair share are not the minimum-wagers, but rather the mega-rich who pay only 15% capital gains.

Re: Warren Buffett has me Confused

#62
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm out with my friends, you're damn right I'd want to pay for the ones struggling with a minimum-wage job and consider that to be my fair share.

You missed the point. That's exactly what Buffet wants. In the pizza example, the people who are not paying their fair share are not the minimum-wagers, but rather the mega-rich who pay only 15% capital gains.

The post I'm replying to placed "pay my fair share" in opposition to paying for the pizza eaten by the people who didn't pay for themselves. I'm pretty sure that the point you're making is not the point he was making, which to me sounded like the standard argument against progressive taxation.

Re: Warren Buffett has me Confused

#63
post #25

When the blog author argues that "Warren Buffet should write a check" he is not oblivious to the fact that asking everyone in your tax bracket to pay more taxes generates more revenue than making a voluntary contribution. Rather, he is arguing that Warren Buffet feeling guilty about not paying enough taxes is not a good basis for rasiing taxes on everyone in that category. Rather, taxes should be placed where they wi…

> So, the relevant question is whether increasing taxes on capital gains will have a change investors behavior making the economy less efficient.

This presumes that we currently have an optimally efficient economy. You're not allowing for the possibility that increasing the capital gains tax will make the economy more efficient, seeing as how, in your own view, the system is plenty distorted.

Re: Warren Buffett has me Confused

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He posits that people making over a certain amount should be ponying up more in taxes. A reasonable assumption to make is that taxes would be raised in such a way that those people would be taxed more, and people who make less, wouldn't be. The specifics are irrelevant to the general argument.

You asked me a specific question: was that detailed enough? The answer was no. Simply because it's detailed enough for you doesn't enter into it. Unless you're prepared to say that those folks paying one dollar more is fair, then we have to have a number. And note: Buffett didn't say they should pay more. He said the rates should be raised. These are two completely different concepts. You could raise the rates and ha…

> And note: Buffett didn't say they should pay more. He said the rates should be raised. These are two completely different concepts. You could raise the rates and have people move their money in such a way as to not pay any more at all. From Buffett's position, simply talking about rates, this would be an acceptable outcome.

He said that a rich individuals' total tax burden, by percentage of all income, should be brought more in line with what the middle class pays. I am reasonably sure you're being purposefully obtuse here. The only way for a person to "move their money in such a way as to not pay any more at all", and still meet Buffett's criteria is to make less money, on purpose.

Re: Warren Buffett has me Confused

#65
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed the point. That's exactly what Buffet wants. In the pizza example, the people who are not paying their fair share are not the minimum-wagers, but rather the mega-rich who pay only 15% capital gains.

The post I'm replying to placed "pay my fair share" in opposition to paying for the pizza eaten by the people who didn't pay for themselves. I'm pretty sure that the point you're making is not the point he was making, which to me sounded like the standard argument against progressive taxation.

No, you're misinterpreting my original post.

jackpirate is correct.

Re: Warren Buffett has me Confused

#66
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The post I'm replying to placed "pay my fair share" in opposition to paying for the pizza eaten by the people who didn't pay for themselves. I'm pretty sure that the point you're making is not the point he was making, which to me sounded like the standard argument against progressive taxation.

No, you're misinterpreting my original post. jackpirate is correct.

Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry I got it wrong. At least we all agree!

Re: Warren Buffett has me Confused

#67
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The constitution and the laws are our written contracts with the government. There are several explicit means by which people make the social contract with government. The commonest is when your parents choose your residency and/or citizenship after your birth. In that case, your parents or guardians are contracting for you, exercising their power of custody. No further explicit action is required on your part to con…

That argument is fundamentally silly for all the reasons identified long ago by Lysander Spooner ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysander_Spooner ) in _No Treason: the Constitution of No Authority_ ( http://lysanderspooner.org/node/44 ). wikipedia quote: " Spooner bolstered his argument by noting that the federal government, as established by a legal contract, could not legally bind all persons living in the nation si…

Actually read my post this time. The argument clearly addresses Spooner's argument that there is no signing of names or giving consent. Your parents explicitly give consent by making you a citizen of the United States when you are born or, if you immigrated, by explicitly pledging allegiance.

Also,

"No Treason" is a lengthy rant that doesn't take longer than the first paragraph to begin its egregious errors.

For example, in the first paragraph: "It [The Constitution] purports, at most, to be only a contract between persons living eighty years ago." Thus he focuses his attention on the Preamble, and evidently ignores Article VII, which says EXACTLY who contracted for the Constitution:

"The ratification of the conventions of nine States shall be sufficient for the establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the same. Done in Convention, by the unanimous consent of the States present, the seventeenth day of September, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-seven, and of the Independence of the United States of America the twelfth. In Witness whereof, we have hereunto subscribed our names." [signatories FOR STATES omitted.]

He's wrong on this simple matter of fact: the constitution says who contracted with whom. But then he goes on to make a big deal about the people of that era being dead, as if contracts between organizations lapse when their office holders depart.

The rest of his "analysis" is equally shoddy, and consists largely of calling government a collection of thieves and murderers at least 75 times. David Friedman, in "The Machinery of Freedom", says Spooner "attacks the contract theory of government like a lawyer arguing a case": but REAL presentations of cases have to cope with counterarguments, and can't depend so heavily on invalid presumptions which are easily shot full of holes.

As for the argument that the laws are vague, unknowable and constantly changing -- part of the law is that the law will be interpreted by the courts. Yes this does mean that you can be in unknowing violation of the law. However, it was part of the contract that you agreed to. By staying in the US as a US citizen you are continuing to re-up your contract. If you don't like this contract then you are free to emigrate.

Re: Warren Buffett has me Confused

#68
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument is fundamentally silly for all the reasons identified long ago by Lysander Spooner ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysander_Spooner ) in _No Treason: the Constitution of No Authority_ ( http://lysanderspooner.org/node/44 ). wikipedia quote: " Spooner bolstered his argument by noting that the federal government, as established by a legal contract, could not legally bind all persons living in the nation si…

Actually read my post this time. The argument clearly addresses Spooner's argument that there is no signing of names or giving consent. Your parents explicitly give consent by making you a citizen of the United States when you are born or, if you immigrated, by explicitly pledging allegiance. Also, "No Treason" is a lengthy rant that doesn't take longer than the first paragraph to begin its egregious errors. For exam…

Look, if I wanted to read Huben's "non-libertarian FAQ", I'd do that. I don't need you quoting random snippets at me (without linking to it) as if they contained actual information.

But tell you what, two can play at that game. I wrote a counter-FAQ a decade ago. I'll quote from that. :-)

> He's wrong on this simple matter of fact: the constitution says who contracted with whom.

(from http://www.impel.com/liblib/NNLFAQ.html#9 )

What the constitution says regarding its own ratification procedure is essentially irrelevant to the argument that Spooner is making. Spooner's comments speak to the question of who this contract should be considered binding upon. Article VII is not overlooked, it is simply irrelevant to this question.

To illustrate: Suppose I wrote a document which I called the "NNL Constitution" that included the line, "Glen Raphael hereby has the legal right to seize Mike Huben's television and automobile."

In Article VII of this document I would write this: "The ratification of the conventions of three Fiefdoms shall be sufficient for the establishment of this Constitution between the Fiefdoms so ratifying the same. Done in Convention, by the unanimous consent of the Fiefdoms present, the nineteenth day of January, in the year one thousand nine hundred and ninety-six. In Witness whereof, we have hereunto subscribed our names." [signatories FOR FIEFDOMS omitted.]

"I'd sign this as a representative of my fiefdom. I'd get a couple other libertarians to sign for the other two fiefdoms, one of which is defined to include Huben and his property. The head of the fiefdom having jurisdiction over Huben would have been duly chosen for that role in a "popular vote" that didn't happen to include Huben . Now, is the NNL a valid document with respect to Huben? The answer is clearly no. No matter what the document says, the people who signed that document didn't have his power of attorney so they have no ability to contract on his behalf. They can make binding contracts with each other but not with him, without his consent.

Googling up and regurgitating talking points made by people "on your side" is no substitute for thinking about what the person you're talking to is saying. If you want to see where Spooner is right or wrong, there's no substitute for reading Spooner. Reading Huben's dismissive take on Spooner is not going to make you more informed.

Just as one can't use what it says in the bible as evidence that we are bound by what the bible says, you can't use what it says in the constitution as evidence that we are bound by what the constitution says. It's a document. Anybody can write a document and make claims about it. The question is: are those claims reasonable and legally binding? Spooner had interesting things to say about this. Huben...not so much.

>By staying in the US as a US citizen you are continuing to re-up your contract. If you don't like this contract then you are free to emigrate.

Suppose I live in a bad neighborhood where my car regularly gets broken into or my apartment burgled. You could say that by staying in that neighborhood, I agree to a "social contract" that includes these sort of infrigements. And if I don't like it, I could move. That is the "contract" we have with the US - essentially the same one might have with a local mafiosa. The organization lets you keep your livelihood as long as you stay in line, under threat of force if you step out of line. Don't try to pretty it up.

It's not an explicit contract, it's an implicit one and it is coerced. The idea of a "social contract" is a theory about how consent could have been acquired in some society, but it's not relevant to any actual society - the governments we've got generally got in through terror and force and the populace tacitly putting-up-with-it. We "consent" because we don't want to go to jail, because we want to go along with the crowd, or because we don't see any other options. Not because our parents made some grand gesture they didn't even realize they were making. The random assortment of actions you say constitute signing a contract all have in common that they don't involve actually, you know, signing a contract.

Re: Warren Buffett has me Confused

#69
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually read my post this time. The argument clearly addresses Spooner's argument that there is no signing of names or giving consent. Your parents explicitly give consent by making you a citizen of the United States when you are born or, if you immigrated, by explicitly pledging allegiance. Also, "No Treason" is a lengthy rant that doesn't take longer than the first paragraph to begin its egregious errors. For exam…

Look, if I wanted to read Huben's "non-libertarian FAQ", I'd do that. I don't need you quoting random snippets at me (without linking to it) as if they contained actual information. But tell you what, two can play at that game. I wrote a counter-FAQ a decade ago. I'll quote from that. :-) > He's wrong on this simple matter of fact: the constitution says who contracted with whom. (from http://www.impel.com/liblib/NNLF…

It's a sad fact that I can quote from a Usenet piece years ago and you're still making the tired points he refuted.

Re: Warren Buffett has me Confused

#70
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, if I wanted to read Huben's "non-libertarian FAQ", I'd do that. I don't need you quoting random snippets at me (without linking to it) as if they contained actual information. But tell you what, two can play at that game. I wrote a counter-FAQ a decade ago. I'll quote from that. :-) > He's wrong on this simple matter of fact: the constitution says who contracted with whom. (from http://www.impel.com/liblib/NNLF…

It's a sad fact that I can quote from a Usenet piece years ago and you're still making the tired points he refuted.

There's a difference between "refuted" and "dubiously asserted, ignoring all arguments to the contrary". :-)

Looking back on this exchange, the core of our disagreement is the word "explicit". A contract is an agreement. If I sign a piece of paper saying I agree to something, that is an "explicit" contract. But if you merely infer based on my actions in some context that I've agreed to something, you are arguing for the existence of an implied contract.

Huben's text confuses the agreement with the terms being agreed to. The legal codes might be written down explicitly but my consent to them is not written down - it is at best implied. There is no explicit social contract. If you claim there is, what's the basis for your claim? When you say agreement is established by doing X or Y, how do you know that? Just because Huben said so? What is the source of your knowledge that these ten acts establish a contract and some other set of acts don't? Could I not with equal justification claim that, say, picking your nose makes you a citizen of Hackerstan and subject to some random set of laws I've written down?

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