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Always Do Extra

bennorthrop.com

61–70 of 129 posts

Re: Always Do Extra

#61

I feel like the people who do "extra", never feel like they're doing extra, they feel like that is part of the job. The example of "creating two screens", you make the screens, and then look at them and think...is this the best I can do? Is there a better way to protect the security? Is there a way I can reduce the boilerplate? Can I refine this so it's easier for somebody else to maintain later? That's the job, as f…

> never feel like they're doing extra, they feel like that is part of the job.

That's the wrong way to look at it - "do extra" is not for the job, it is for your skills.

>> so Extra is what helps us broaden ourselves beyond just what's useful on our narrow project

Researching a new way of doing things is not about doing what is in front of you, it is to make use of the time-resource you have while you're in context. The article does mention it in passing, though it might not be clear that it is not "do the work better" (in more maintainable, more scalable ways), it is "become better at working".

Trying something and not being hurried is how the "learn by doing" people learn.

>> find their way into roles where Extra is their Normal Work, and we call these people Architects

In the article, I think that's a mislabeling of what a Principal engineer should be doing - the Architect's job is pretty much to talk to other architects constantly about what the Principals are doing with their "Extra".

"Team X is rewriting their jobs from Lambda to Batch because this package is over 50mb" would turn into a "how hard would it be to split it into -lib, -bin and -debuginfo packages?" - someone would spent their extra and tell me "wait, but we're shipping the .a and .so in the same -lib - this is a 900k .so".

People who get into tech tend to get nerd-sniped like that, but more accurately also enjoy working on a "solve a problem, not really a deadline" work. The Golden rule is to never take credit for someone who figured it out, just because you sent the email asking about it. Keep a set of notes of stuff that spontaenously happens and note it in every promotion review you write & it does eventually catch on that working on a 2-day jog like this is going to pay-off.

Re: Always Do Extra

#62
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the author needs to elaborate more on "extra". I've been on both sides and I know what Ben is referring to. This isn't about showing off so that your boss thinks you're not busy. I think OP is trying to encourage people to care about their job to the point where they want to do it better. I think what he means is: doing extra is insurance. It is knowing your job more than just punching a clock and getting the…

Sorry, I’ve been doing your ‘extra’ for years. While it earns you kudos and respect, it rarely gets you promoted, if ever. Playing politics on the other hand is lot more successful.

A lot of playing politics is just knowing the type of extra work that will get you promoted.

Re: Always Do Extra

#63
post #55
post #41

Oh, God. This sums up one of my coworkers. Smart, productive, generates lots of LOC that almost always do the right thing, but oh my God, the "Extra." Dig into any of his code and you'll always find something Extra, like the front end is built in SomeObscureLanguage.js, or the business logic is expressed in a custom DSL implemented by macros, or some piece of the app seems to be mysteriously absent, until you discove…

That's a bad "extra". My advice to junior engineers is "take one step extra". Write that test that you should have written. Cover that one edge case you know you blew off. Write that cleaner error message that you should have done in the first place. Pick off a single "FIXME" in the code. Write that comment explaining "why" you just wrote the code this way. The "one step" is the important part. Everybody can take "on…

> Write that test that you should have written. Cover that one edge case you know you blew off. Write that cleaner error message that you should have done in the first place. Pick off a single "FIXME" in the code. Write that comment explaining "why" you just wrote the code this way.

Yep. This is exactly the right way to go. Another great extra: One of the best devs I've ever worked with would find one bug at the end of the day, every day, and kill it. He'd pick based on how much time he had. One developer, killing one bug every day kills over 260 in a year. Oh, and as the bugs die, development accelerates because so much less time is spent on working around bugs.

If you work in an organization that doesn't value and promote those that do extra, find somewhere that does. Work doesn't have to suck... especially developing software.

Re: Always Do Extra

#64

I feel like the people who do "extra", never feel like they're doing extra, they feel like that is part of the job. The example of "creating two screens", you make the screens, and then look at them and think...is this the best I can do? Is there a better way to protect the security? Is there a way I can reduce the boilerplate? Can I refine this so it's easier for somebody else to maintain later? That's the job, as f…

100%. If your lead isn't baking in time for interleaving steady foundational work, then it's probably a consulting one-off where that's the receiving org's problem... or it's time to look for a more productive environment.

Re: Always Do Extra

#65
post #41

Oh, God. This sums up one of my coworkers. Smart, productive, generates lots of LOC that almost always do the right thing, but oh my God, the "Extra." Dig into any of his code and you'll always find something Extra, like the front end is built in SomeObscureLanguage.js, or the business logic is expressed in a custom DSL implemented by macros, or some piece of the app seems to be mysteriously absent, until you discove…

This, I think, is the pitfall of doing your own thing. When I was younger I did a lot of extra and I suppose it went fine. I did expand our features and I added more functionality and sometimes it ended up being useful. But the truth is that I'm not a strong enough engineer to see what extra I could do that would consistently add value. I think a lot of people who find success in doing extra are either lucky or at a…

I agree. I think doing Extra for personal development is rarely aligned with job performance, and you have to be very, very good and conscientious about creating that alignment. More often people get away with it by tanking the productivity of their coworkers and making the business increasingly reliant on their personal productivity. But to do this you need weak or absent technical management.

I think doing Extra, More, or "Nothing" are all fine choices, if by "Nothing" you include spending time on family, community, health, and non-professional education. For professional advancement, I think "More" is a fine choice if you have good management. Management should have the perspective to appreciate you making the right choice for the business. If they don't, well, in that situation, I find that advancement depends on selling yourself to people who only care if you're delivering good news for them and can't appreciate anything else.

Re: Always Do Extra

#66

Wrong. Business is about relationships. Be competent and do what is minimally required. Do extra networking or befriending your manager/boss/etc. People who get ahead build relationships. The slaves stick around to do the extra work. Competence + relationship > competence + extra work It's so funny how all the business advice is about how to be a good slave rather than what really gets you ahead.

> Wrong. Business is about relationships. Be competent and do what is minimally required.

Wow. this is the worst advice I've ever read on HN. As an owner, I seek out employees that are good at politics and poor workers and help them find a job at another company (ESPECIALLY COMPETITORS). A lot of times, they even think they are getting a promotion when they leave.

> The slaves stick around to do the extra work.

This is the problem. "Extra" does not mean "extra work". It means go beyond. Solve an extra problem, write that document, squash an unexpected bug or two, organize a language meetup group... something outside the necessary.

> Competence + relationship > competence + extra work

Competence is a low bar that nearly every adult professional meets. Be better than competent is what the extra is all about. Also, building relationships isn't that hard. I can't tell you the number of times that I see people who are bitter about not getting promoted say no thanks to their manager when approached with, do you want to grab lunch?

Re: Always Do Extra

#67
Sharing my limited experience. In any way or form I don't imply that my point of view is right. Producing software is complex process that requires constant adjustment and change.

I have successfully run my company (middle level web-shop) and delivered results for more than 16 years. In my PM practice I never required my engineers to do "extra". In my view this is not productive approach at all.

Creating the adequate communication channels and production processes with transparency delivers results. Defining clear rules of engagement for the teams in research, prototype and production stages removes the "need" of "extra" work or overtime.

I understand the thesis of the article, but respectfully disagree with the author. Doing extra work for yourself as an investment in being better is definitely a good thing.

But doing this in production will create misalignment and frustration within the team, and the overall net effect will not be higher quality.

Re: Always Do Extra

#68
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the author needs to elaborate more on "extra". I've been on both sides and I know what Ben is referring to. This isn't about showing off so that your boss thinks you're not busy. I think OP is trying to encourage people to care about their job to the point where they want to do it better. I think what he means is: doing extra is insurance. It is knowing your job more than just punching a clock and getting the…

Sorry, I’ve been doing your ‘extra’ for years. While it earns you kudos and respect, it rarely gets you promoted, if ever. Playing politics on the other hand is lot more successful.

Everyone knows damn well enough that internal politics can either make this story shine like a diamond, be pushed into a black morass, or everything in between. Internal politics supersedes all best practices in any country, market, or decade

Re: Always Do Extra

#69
I think the observation is great but the implication of causality is the wrong way around..

People who get enjoyment from their programming job will like to Do Extra as they probably also get enjoyment from new tech, extending themselves, etc etc.

People who don't get enjoyment from their programming job won't get enjoyment from Doing Extra, so they won't naturally do it.

Telling one of the latter to Do Extra probably won't turn them into someone who gets enjoyment from a programming job.

Re: Always Do Extra

#70
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I’ve been doing your ‘extra’ for years. While it earns you kudos and respect, it rarely gets you promoted, if ever. Playing politics on the other hand is lot more successful.

Everyone knows damn well enough that internal politics can either make this story shine like a diamond, be pushed into a black morass, or everything in between. Internal politics supersedes all best practices in any country, market, or decade

Actually I dislike it intensely. Politics always gives rise to the most mediocre ideas.
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