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‘Seinfeld’ fans upset that Netflix’s aspect ratio cuts out jokes

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Re: ‘Seinfeld’ fans upset that Netflix’s aspect ratio cuts out jokes

#61
post #9

I watched this in 16:9 on Amazon Video (it's been available for years) and I disagree it's a problem. I think they did a great job. Yes, some things were cut out, but you could count them on one hand. Having said that they should've offered a 4:3 version. I would have watched that one version had they offered it.

"Having said that" ... https://youtu.be/RS49gJ2eKrY?t=37

More seriously I've watched the show multiple times in 16:9 and it's mostly fine but I've always thought the 4:3 scenes on YouTube looked better, so I had some hope we would have the option on Netflix.

Also some people say the new transfer is too dark but I did not notice.

Re: ‘Seinfeld’ fans upset that Netflix’s aspect ratio cuts out jokes

#62
post #9

I watched this in 16:9 on Amazon Video (it's been available for years) and I disagree it's a problem. I think they did a great job. Yes, some things were cut out, but you could count them on one hand. Having said that they should've offered a 4:3 version. I would have watched that one version had they offered it.

"Having said that" ... https://youtu.be/RS49gJ2eKrY?t=37 More seriously I've watched the show multiple times in 16:9 and it's mostly fine but I've always thought the 4:3 scenes on YouTube looked better, so I had some hope we would have the option on Netflix. Also some people say the new transfer is too dark but I did not notice.

>"Having said that" ... https://youtu.be/RS49gJ2eKrY?t=37

I didn't expect anybody to get the joke. Congratulations ;-)

Re: ‘Seinfeld’ fans upset that Netflix’s aspect ratio cuts out jokes

#63

It's times like this that I think that piracy is the only way to preserve pop culture.

Yes, another example is the 90s show Beavis & Butthead. A big part of the show was the two characters watching music videos and making fun of them. It’s a licensing nightmare so a lot of them got cut out in subsequent releases of the show.

Anything with musical guests also suffers from this issue. There is no legal and complete copy of SNL that you can buy, no matter what you are willing to pay. A great deal of MTV's content isn't able to be sold, and MTV was probably the most important television station from a cultural perspective during it's heyday.

Re: ‘Seinfeld’ fans upset that Netflix’s aspect ratio cuts out jokes

#64
post #33
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that it's much better for marketing it to a newer generation. I suspect that for somebody in their early 20s starting to watch Seinfield these days a 4:3 ratio would immediately make the show look dated. I mean surely they ran the numbers and figured out it was worth it? Otherwise it wouldn't be so common with so many TV shows. When I was a kid in the 90's I remember that it was not uncommon to have black-and…

"Make it look dated" is just not a good argument. There is no good argument. Cropping out huge amounts of the actual material is not justifiable. End of story.

I'm not voicing an opinion, I'm just trying to explain the trend, personally I also prefer the original version. Clearly for the right holders and broadcasters the cropping is perfectly justifiable and actually preferred.

Re: ‘Seinfeld’ fans upset that Netflix’s aspect ratio cuts out jokes

#65
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The series was filmed in... film. There is no need for upscaling. They digitalised it from the film and it looks as if it was recorded yesterday.

It's pretty amazing the digital-equivalent resolution that actual film has (depends on the film size obviously but if you were to compare average film size to a average 10+ year digital camera it's a huge difference)

One downside of the incredible resolution of the film and the resulting transfer is that you can see that one or more of the cameras was perpetually out of focus through the first couple of seasons.

Re: ‘Seinfeld’ fans upset that Netflix’s aspect ratio cuts out jokes

#66
post #3

This was the case with Simpsons when it came onto Disney Plus - they took the 4:3 and didn't just blow it to 14:9, but 16:9 -- throwing away a quarter of the original image. There's now an option to show the original aspect ratio, I didn't discover it for a long time though. Amazon prime on my phone blows up 16:9 material too, chopping off the top and bottom to fit the wider aspect ratio, unless you're careful to 'zo…

> Amazon prime on my phone blows up 16:9 material too, chopping off the top and bottom to fit the wider aspect ratio, unless you're careful to 'zoom out' Interesting. I've just checked on my iPhone, and 4:3 video stays 4:3, with black bars on the side.

I'm talking 16:9, I was watching a fairly recent south park (from about 2015) on an iphone12 mini, there are two options that double tapping toggles between, one is the original 16:9, the other zooms in so it's full width (including the notch), so 19.5:9. In other words it's taking a 1920x1080 image and only showing 886 lines, dropping 97 lines from the top and bottom.

Re: ‘Seinfeld’ fans upset that Netflix’s aspect ratio cuts out jokes

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty amazing the digital-equivalent resolution that actual film has (depends on the film size obviously but if you were to compare average film size to a average 10+ year digital camera it's a huge difference)

It is pretty amazing how well those sources have held up as other technology advanced. Based on some googling, various sources indicate that 35mm film has a usable resolution somewhere between 4K and 8K video, so we're arguably reaching the limits of what we can extract from it (without consideration for "AI upscaling" and such). Cinema grade digital cameras, like the RED V-Raptor[0] (MKBHD behind the scenes[1]), can…

You cannot just get "cinematic" frames by using every fifth frame. The shutter speed at 120 fps is much higher than shooting film at 24 fps hence a lot less motion blur that is part of the "cinematic look".

Re: ‘Seinfeld’ fans upset that Netflix’s aspect ratio cuts out jokes

#68
post #56
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, stereo speakers. Is it not feeding center into both or something?

Probably not, or the mix might be off. It's worth checking. Your experience seems consistent with a missing center track (which contains most of the dialogue sound).

Which really isn't the person you're replying tos problem. Stereo should just work you shouldn't need to get a center channel.

Re: ‘Seinfeld’ fans upset that Netflix’s aspect ratio cuts out jokes

#69
post #40

It's times like this that I think that piracy is the only way to preserve pop culture.

That and/or owning DVDs/BRs. Most of my friends laugh at me for still buying physical media, but the reality is I don't trust streaming services, or IP owners in general really. There is no way my kids are growing up thinking that Han didn't shot first.

I hope your kids get to watch Han shoot first in 4K - https://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com/project-4k77/

Re: ‘Seinfeld’ fans upset that Netflix’s aspect ratio cuts out jokes

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is pretty amazing how well those sources have held up as other technology advanced. Based on some googling, various sources indicate that 35mm film has a usable resolution somewhere between 4K and 8K video, so we're arguably reaching the limits of what we can extract from it (without consideration for "AI upscaling" and such). Cinema grade digital cameras, like the RED V-Raptor[0] (MKBHD behind the scenes[1]), can…

You cannot just get "cinematic" frames by using every fifth frame. The shutter speed at 120 fps is much higher than shooting film at 24 fps hence a lot less motion blur that is part of the "cinematic look".

The shutter speed and frame rate are not necessarily linked. Unless you’re using an ND filter (or an undesirably high f-stop) specifically because you want to be able to have more motion blur, most well-lit scenes would surely be blown out at 1/24 of a second (or the usual 1/48 or 1/60), even at the lowest ISO, so digital cameras compensate by shooting individual frames at higher shutter speeds, reducing or eliminating motion blur anyways.

Under optimal conditions, maybe you’re right… but I would personally lump the desire for tons of motion blur in with the nostalgia that causes people to use 24 fps in the first place.

It’s not like people originally wanted to shoot at a noticeably low frame rates… it’s just what they had to do. Then it became a standard that resisted change. Now people artificially restrict themselves to be bug-for-bug compatible with old technology. In fact, a lot of silent films were shot at 16 fps. Why does no one clamor for the return of 16 fps? Arguably, 16 fps is 33% more cinematic!

There are plenty of reasons that I’m not a professional cinematographer… but for the same reason that no one would prefer to watch a film captured in 10 fps, it follows logically that 24 fps is not actually “better” than higher frame rates. It’s just what people have been taught to see as better through experience when they contrast traditional, high budget films shot at 24 fps with low budget TV shows that were broadcast at 60 fps. It’s probably going to be decades before people unlearn this low frame rate preference, but I predict people a hundred years from now will be far less impressed with 24 fps footage than some people today.

I have plenty of other unpopular opinions available too. :P

Regardless, it doesn’t seem beyond belief to imagine that someone could combine the 5 frames of 120fps -> 24fps into individual “long exposure” shots that produce a similar motion blur effect as a single frame taken with a slower shutter. The necessary data is (mostly) all there, if someone took advantage of it. A well-proven technique similar to this is used in astrophotography to create artificially longer exposures, but it is combined with an alignment step to avoid the motion blur of the Earth spinning relative to the stars, which is why astrophotographers don't just extend the length of the exposure, and why they bother with combining multiple exposures. Obviously, applying this technique to create motion blur would mean skipping the alignment step, at a minimum, but this is probably one of those things that would be relatively simple for a properly trained neural network to do a good job with smoothing out, to avoid the gaps of motion blur between the frames that are available... each of which would likely be individually shot with a shutter speed faster than 1/120 anyways.

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