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The worst thing I read this year, and what it taught me (2016)

ethanzuckerman.com

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Re: The worst thing I read this year, and what it taught me (2016)

#61

Post by ModernMech »

nemo44x wrote: post #44
ModernMech wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this surveillance system would be controlled by…

Multiple independent auditors?

That could work but at the end of the day it’s the guards who have physical control of the surveillance system. We would have to rely on this other system (powered by ML — who designed this system? - and independent auditors) working for prisoners instead of for the guards when anything goes wrong (sorry the recording malfunctioned during the exact period you claim you were assaulted).

Unfortunately prisoners are usually on the losing end of systems designed by their jailers, as they lack strong advocacy and a role in designing the system itself.

Re: The worst thing I read this year, and what it taught me (2016)

#62

Post by mcguire »

Moodles wrote: post #58
SavantIdiot wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you're saying, but let me try to explain what I see as the difference between the two situations. Curing cancer is about biology, chemistry, etc. It literally does not require any experience having cancer as you stated. Just lots of research and college education. However, if you said you were going to write an app to cure "the mental anxiety associated with having cancer," and you've never had cancer, but…

Psychologists help cure anxiety, depression, addiction, etc. all the time without actually suffering from it themselves. They're "privileged" not to suffer from it themselves or even necessarily have any friends or family who suffer from it. They just do good user research before creating a solution presumably. Also, conversely, plenty of people who have "lived experience" of how they cured their anxiety with a cult…

"They just do good user research before creating a solution presumably."

That would kind of be the point, right? Rather than saying, "Just do X", they try to understand the problem first and don't just throw out ideas that solve what they a-priori think the problem is while also being what they think of as easy to implement.

Re: The worst thing I read this year, and what it taught me (2016)

#63

Post by mcguire »

jjoonathan wrote: post #55
SavantIdiot wrote: post #43

I know most of you hate this word, but this is a great example of what privilege looks like: thinking you can solve a problem you have zero experience with, and not including people who do. Another example: I was at a hackathon and met this kid who wanted to build a wristband for domestic violence victims so they could push a button and call for help when they were being abused. Great idea, he wants to use his tech k…

Harsh words. If they can persuade even a single person to gather enough domain knowledge to validate their efforts, I suppose they could do some good. That said, whenever I see someone doing the Dunning Kruger Maneuver, I try to approach with compassion and communicate the constraints they are missing without mocking them, humiliating them, and forcing them into a corner where they publicly lose face. Misplaced confi…

"[Jurassic Park] convinced a generation of casual moviegoers that they understood the risks of genetic engineering to be severe and untamable...."

Well, from what I remember, it taught a generation that "those people are stupid and if they'd just done X, everything would have worked out unicorns and rainbows."

Re: The worst thing I read this year, and what it taught me (2016)

#64

Post by imperialdrive »

Moodles wrote: post #58
SavantIdiot wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you're saying, but let me try to explain what I see as the difference between the two situations. Curing cancer is about biology, chemistry, etc. It literally does not require any experience having cancer as you stated. Just lots of research and college education. However, if you said you were going to write an app to cure "the mental anxiety associated with having cancer," and you've never had cancer, but…

Psychologists help cure anxiety, depression, addiction, etc. all the time without actually suffering from it themselves. They're "privileged" not to suffer from it themselves or even necessarily have any friends or family who suffer from it. They just do good user research before creating a solution presumably. Also, conversely, plenty of people who have "lived experience" of how they cured their anxiety with a cult…

Just curious if you know any psychologists that fit into this category? I know a handful pretty well and all specialize in areas they have direct experience with. They also 'experience' their clients pain, similar to a masseuse. Perhaps it's like being a developer without hands on experience with css, networking, or virtualization etc... You can still be a really good developer, but you probably can't say you're great at it or be a worthwhile resource for teaching others.

Re: The worst thing I read this year, and what it taught me (2016)

#65

Post by projektfu »

cousin_it wrote: post #40
ModernMech wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modern prison is not modeled after a town, school, or hospital as a place of community, growth, and rehabilitation. The modern prison is modeled after a dairy farm, where prisoners are livestock to be housed and milked for profit. I’m a big believer in the idea that economic incentives determine behavior, so until we take the profit motive out of the prison system, I believe it will continue to be a place of expl…

That can't be the answer to my question, as prisons have become more isolated also in countries where they aren't privatized.

A prison doesn't have to be private to have a profit motive. Many prisons are built to provide jobs (corrections officers, admin, services) in their localities. Many prisoners are housed far from their homes. It can't be beyond notice to elected representatives that closing the prisons would affect their constituents.

Re: The worst thing I read this year, and what it taught me (2016)

#66

Post by mcguire »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #8

I mean, I'm with Snow here. I think the response is a bit poor in that "well, we don't know that this is safe, so this proposal is obviously crazy and does no one any good." Maybe we could find out if it's safe? It doesn't seem obvious to me that it's a bad idea.

Technically, the response is more like

"Well, we have reasons to believe that this idea is dangerous and it doesn't actually solve any problems. In fact, the only advantage it does have is to give some pseudo-intellectual who doesn't understand any of the issues the warm, fuzzy feeling that he's smarter than everyone else."

I mean really, he calculated the price of the prisoner's toilet?

Re: The worst thing I read this year, and what it taught me (2016)

#68

Post by mcguire »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #19
simmerup wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens when a rowdy prisoner breaks the VR headset and is suddenly trapped alone in a box for 10 years. What state do you think he’ll be in when he’s let out? Ridiculous idea

Maybe you could give them a replacement edit: and I mean, they could still use voicechat in the meanwhile, you can build that in the wall so it's pretty hard to break

What happens if VR goggles turn out not to be the most wonderful thing ever?

Well, it's still cheaper and I'm sure eventually VR technology will get better...

Re: The worst thing I read this year, and what it taught me (2016)

#69

Post by probably_wrong »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #8

I mean, I'm with Snow here. I think the response is a bit poor in that "well, we don't know that this is safe, so this proposal is obviously crazy and does no one any good." Maybe we could find out if it's safe? It doesn't seem obvious to me that it's a bad idea.

Leaving aside the technical issues of "what happens when a mentally-ill prisoner breaks every new headset after 5 minutes" aside for a moment.

The pandemic has provided us with a lite version of what Snow proposed. And despite having better conditions (bigger and comfier apartments, no need to live alone, allowed to leave the place once in a while) this was enough for plenty of people to have nervous breakdowns.

I don't doubt that I would do fine in such a prison, but I also don't doubt that most people would come out completely broken. To quote the modern poet Randall Munroe [1], "I've never been that big of a hug person, but it turns out I'm not quite this small of a hug person either".

[1] https://xkcd.com/2419/

Re: The worst thing I read this year, and what it taught me (2016)

#70

Post by mcguire »

xwdv wrote: post #33

If the linked excerpt is supposed to be the epitome of outrage, I don’t get it. The idea is a bit odd but seems worth exploring and is better than the current alternatives.

So what to you would be the epitome of outrage, if solitary confinement, hypothetical technology, and optimizing for the cheapest manner of keeping a human alive is not it?
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