A generation of American men give up on college • Hacker News Board

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#61

Post by jasonboyd » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 6:06 AM UTC

effingwewt wrote: post #38

pwthornton wrote: post #37

The thing that struck me right off the bat was that the lead photo of this story is of 18-year-old with a PS5 and pretty sweet setup in his bedroom. I don't have anything deep to add to this, but if you can sit at home in your childhood bedroom indefinitely playing video games and working menial jobs, maybe the allure is there.

I mean of the choice is between that and crippling debt and a useless degree, he's making the objectively smart move. The fact that they were able to buy things while living at home just drives the point home even more- he would not have the disposable income to make those purchases for many years if he decides to go to college.

Wut? Are those the only choices? Is there nothing in between? Lay off the drama. I don't feel like my degree was useless (and I'm not even working in the field I got a degree in) and I certainly didn't graduate with crippling debt.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#62

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 6:07 AM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #54

notfromhere wrote: post #48

There’s a lot of anti-intellectualism that floats around in male culture, and a pernicious attitude that you can make it without a degree (despite the reality that a lack of credentials locks you out of most high paying or leadership roles). Tech likes to pretend credentials don’t matter, but that’s entirely not true. Not surprising that enrollment is down when too many men think learning things is for nerds. Source:…

I didn't go to college, and I'm one of the techs you're referring to. But techs also think on-job experience and self-motivated projects are equivalent to or better than college, and both of those are necessary. There are tons of high paying jobs available to people who learn trades, either in trade schools or on the job. Much of tech is like a trade - as a software engineer, I certainly have more in common with a ca…

[deleted]

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#63

Post by baron816 » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 6:08 AM UTC

A lot of this is driven by narratives—A narrative that college isn’t worth it anymore. A narrative that (white) men are uniformly privileged and life is just easy for them. And a narrative that those men aren’t wanted by society any more.

I’m not convinced that all those men need to go to college, but they clearly need something. They need to feel like they’re part of society. Nothing good can come of an entire generation that feels lost, without purpose, and unwanted.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#64

Post by temp10298385 » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 6:09 AM UTC

spaceflunky wrote: post #39

phendrenad2 wrote: post #8

This is because in our society, it's more acceptable for men to drop out and get into some skilled trade, like plumbing or climbing telephone poles. People just won't accept that women can also do that. So there's a lot of pressure to make sure your female children go to college and get a degree.

> like plumbing or climbing telephone poles. People just won't accept that women can also do that. You sure about that? Or is it that the majority of women don't see themselves unclogging toilets for a living? I have never seen it, but I would suspect list of female applications to plumbing or electrician school is very very short.

I do not necessarily agree with the original post’s statement but this response seems confused to me.

Few female applicants to trade schools is consistent with the original statement. If it is societally unacceptable for a woman to be a plumber then I would expect women to act as any rational agent and factor this in when planning their future career.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#65

Post by DasIch » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 6:09 AM UTC

wasmburger wrote: post #59

I wonder if it could be because masculinity is being challenged on campus in the current era. Why would a male who has issues with women want to go to a place where he will be challenged to change his views in sensitivty and toxic masculinity courses? Conversely, why would a male who does not have issues with women go to a place where he will be labeled as having toxic masculinity? It's not like these issues haven't…

The term “toxic masculinity” does not and is not intended to imply that masculinity itself is toxic.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#66

Post by happythen » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 6:10 AM UTC

notfromhere wrote: post #48

There’s a lot of anti-intellectualism that floats around in male culture, and a pernicious attitude that you can make it without a degree (despite the reality that a lack of credentials locks you out of most high paying or leadership roles). Tech likes to pretend credentials don’t matter, but that’s entirely not true. Not surprising that enrollment is down when too many men think learning things is for nerds. Source:…

I don't have a degree and am from US as well. In most my jobs, I am usually the only one without it. In Europe, it's even more rare, (majority of colleagues have PhDs). When people find out I am not educated, they are not happy about it, initially.

People can be really mean, especially when you aren't "smart". I had to read a lot about a lot of things just so I could go to lunch and participate in the chatter with coworkers.

But, not getting a degree never blocked me from getting great money or any position, I just had to work hard for it, always had to prove myself, earn trust. It's life on hard mode for sure, but not a blocker.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#67

Post by babesh » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 6:10 AM UTC

frankbreetz wrote: post #27

chuckee wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. And there's no non-college educated professions where women are prevalent? It's plumbing or bust? Of course clearly when women were under-represented in college, that was due to misogyny. And now that they are over-represented, it's also due to misogyny. No matter what the facts are, the conclusion is the same. There's a word for that.

I am having trouble coming up with a single high paying, no degree required job that is majority female. Please let me know if I am missing some.

OnlyFans, models, successful real estate agents, certain categories of social influencers

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#68

Post by epicureanideal » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 6:18 AM UTC

petre wrote: post #51

david38 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women are known to chase institutional accolades more than men when given the opportunity. It is in line with a general preference for more security. Will it work today? Probably. There are few women in the trades. If you can get a cheap degree, it is likely better than no degree.

No, women are generally underpaid compared to men, so it's obvious that they'll try to get the appropriate degrees in order to be able to compete.

Women don’t earn less for the same work. Never married women with no kids actually out earn never married men with no kids.

Please read “why men earn more” by Warren Farrell or skim the table of contents for a list of some of the factors that influence earnings, such as working longer hours, in a different field, in unpleasant conditions, etc.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#69

Post by hattmall » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 6:19 AM UTC

throwcommonsns wrote: post #50

Arete314159 wrote: post #42

One guy they profiled is making $20 an hour in Toledo, Ohio. If he's working full time, that's 40k a year. Zillow has a number of houses for sale in Toledo for under $40k. Like, they need some work, but a real house, under 40k. I think that guy is doing fine, he should just keep doing exactly what he's doing.

There's this unfortunately prevailing attitude that you aren't successful in America if you aren't living in New York or San Francisco. It's absolutely bonkers. There are many other great places in this country besides those two cities.

Those aren't even that great of places so I think it's pretty regional on thinking that. But definitely there's an attitude of needing to be in a major city to be successful and it's not entirely false. The big difference is major urban area vs not.

Sure, NYC/SF are super expensive, but almost every urban area is when compared to other smaller cities or rural areas.

The issue is that for a lot of people they can only find an ok job in the major urban area, but it's not enough to live there so they get stuck in the suburban wastelands with 45+ minute drives just to go work 8 hours.

They make enough to get by, but not enough to save and move out to a more desirable living situation in a smaller city or rural area without a secure job lined up.

Like $20 an hour is good in Toledo, but it's probably not what most people are making. That's probably a job you have to work up to for years. At $20 an hour in Toledo you very likely can have a higher quality of life then people making far more in the much larger metro areas. But at $10 an hour ($8.80/$7.25) in Toledo area you're probably worse off due to a lack of public support and opportunities for advancement.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#70

Post by piker » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 6:21 AM UTC

Arete314159 wrote: post #42

One guy they profiled is making $20 an hour in Toledo, Ohio. If he's working full time, that's 40k a year. Zillow has a number of houses for sale in Toledo for under $40k. Like, they need some work, but a real house, under 40k. I think that guy is doing fine, he should just keep doing exactly what he's doing.

This is only even close to true if this compensation includes a significant employer contribution to a health insurance policy and/or short term disability coverage. If not, this guy will be one broken leg away from a credit card death spiral.