Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished? • Hacker News Board

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#61

Post by rich_sasha » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 9:20 AM UTC

cameronh90 wrote: post #47

rich_sasha wrote: post #4

Sad but true. I think the most fundamental change of Brexit is the overwhelming "you're not welcome" message. Visas, papers, bureaucrats, people can deal with. But the idea that you're at best tolerated so long as you pay your taxes is really off-putting (even for me, now UK citizen and long-time resident). Also, all these schemes forget that moving for a job is so much more than that - it is moving a life. Can you m…

As an alternate data point, my partner is a non-EU immigrant living in the UK. The immigration process was relatively straightforward, visa renewal was easy and she's rarely felt any hostility, unwelcoming or anyone looking down on her for being foreign. We do live in London, however my family are from elsewhere so we've spent plenty of time in other parts. Surveys generally say the UK and US attitude to immigrants i…

I talk to my children in Polish. Almost never before Brexit would random people ask me where I'm from or what language I'm speaking. Now it's all the time, and often with a gentle roll of the eyes afterwards. We don't live in London btw.

I'd never go as far as saying it's terrible, but it's markedly different than it was.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#62

Post by eCa » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 9:21 AM UTC

secretsatan wrote: post #18

Speaking as a UK immigrant to Switzerland, even though it is not in the EU, Brexit is just a massive pain. Switzerland has a somewhat strained relationship with the EU, but does have lots of bilateral agreements, like free movement in the Schengen zone, now I'm not even sure if I need a passport to cross the border to France for a day trip. Not to mention job prospects, it used to be Swiss, then EU then the rest of t…

> I'm not even sure if I need a passport to cross the border to France for a day trip.

You should always bring EU-approved ID when crossing EU borders (even internal). There can be checks for a number of reasons.

For example, many moons ago high in the Alps, at the border between France and Italy, I witnessed two people on a French motorbike being turned back by the Italian customs for not having ID.

Worst case scenario for you would be to not be let back in.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#63

Post by gambiting » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 9:21 AM UTC

beardedman wrote: post #30

A palpable amount of entitlement coming from the author. I like it (sarcasm). > can you account for all your international travels over the past 10 years Well, absolutely. > It has now become a long and challenging obstacle race It has, or is it maybe quite normal? > But it’s not only the UK — the United States has also made it difficult for founders to immigrate and settle in Silicon Valley. Like the new post-Brexit…

>>How dare they be asked to prove they *can enter a country (again, sarcasm).

To me, I really struggle with this one. To me, being an EU citizen is literally above being a citizen of my home country, so yes, I do feel at home anywhere within the EU, honestly and genuienly. So when UK started asking me "why are you here" it feels offensive - what do you mean why am I here? Do I suddenly not belong? And that lack of (or someone questioning it) belonging is really unpleasant feeling.

>>yet another great example of people in the "1st world" are so completely disconnected

I don't think being upset that someone is asking you why you live in your own home is being "disconnected". It's like having the proverbial rug pulled from under you. One day you have certain rights and priviledges, the next day you don't.

But like others have said - just because people complain about these problems, doesn't mean we're not aware of the issues others are having. Immigration from outside of the EU has always been difficult and full of hoops and we do acknowledge that.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#64

Post by latte » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 9:22 AM UTC

As someone from outside the EU, I had to go through the bureaucratic hassle described in the article to get into the UK.

After Brexit, the visa requirements were somewhat relaxed in comparison to what they had been for non-EU citizens. For example, previously to hire a non-EU citizen, an employer had to advertise the vacancy on the market for a certain amount of time to 'prove' that they cannot fill it with an EU citizen. Now this requirement, if I remember correctly, has been abolished.

I am against Brexit for a number of reasons, but the differences in immigration rules for different people were too heavily affected by the 20th century war alliances, which have thoroughly influenced the current shape and composition of the EU. I am glad that the playing ground is now somewhat more even.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#65

Post by collaborative » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 9:22 AM UTC

eptcyka wrote: post #37

collaborative wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry to hear that this happened to you. Brexit also put a lot of psychological pressure on my wife. She's from a Baltic country, but during Brexit, she'd constantly be asked if she was Polish for no reason at all. -"Hi, nice to meet you" -"Hi, are you Polish?" Nothing against Polish people of course, but it made her start to gradually lose it. Each new instance would bring tears for days Luckily, it seems Brexit…

Me and my partner are in the same boat as your wife - we're from the baltic states and when people are curious about our origins, they ask if we're polish or not. I don't really hold it against people, but having to reassert your own ethnicity gets tiring. Most people are not aware of the country I come from anyway. As a side note of the knowledge the general public holds, it seems like the history knowledge people g…

When I lived in the US everyone would automatically assume I was Mexican (I am Spanish), so I totally get how it feels. I remember that some times I'd even say that yes, I was Mexican, just to avoid having to spend any time on it. For example, in the US loads of people think that Spain is next to Mexico. So I'd joke that I went home by train, and if nobody blinked, I'd at least get a laugh out of it. This is a big part of why I love all the Borat movies

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#66

Post by BiteCode_dev » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 9:22 AM UTC

bb123 wrote: post #41

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #15

That's by design, border control was a selling point of Brexit, as brexiters saw only the bad side of immigration. Which to be fair, is no seamless nor without challenges or cost. I suppose the rational is: • Diminish the friction that multi-culturalism and diversity integration can bring. • Free jobs for the local population. • Having to share less of lands, resources, and infrastructures. And I see the point, but i…

A couple of counterpoints (offered in good faith): > - the UK needs the import/export flow it was used to pre-brexit to keep their current life style. That is about goods, which are totally separate to immigration. > - the current british population doesn't seem very motivation to take back the job they delegated to immigration. Motivation has nothing to do with it. The employers offering these shitty jobs have gotte…

I'll upvote you because I love people being civil on HN.

> That is about goods, which are totally separate to immigration.

Yes, but you need trucks, boats, and loaders for those. A lot of the people dealing with that are immigrants.

> The employers offering these shitty jobs have gotten used to being able to pay poor wages to cheap imported labour.

Working in agriculture as always been low paid back breaking work. There were no "good old time". We are just not used anymore to have a part of our own population is been used as semi-slave and shutting up.

Not saying it's a bad thing, we should strive to make for better working conditions. But those jobs still need to be done, and we don't have android doing them for now.

It could go the Australian way, and make those jobs decently paid, but even there, immigrates still do those jobs! Not to mention their economy is sky rocketing so they can afford it.

> The UK punches way above its weight in terms of high end education institutions per capita (trailing only the US) The UK also has more STEM grads per capita than any European country.

The number are high yes, but the level of graduates is terrible. In fact, I got my diploma despite not handing out my final memoir or reaching the minimal passing grades. I spent a year drunk, and got a paper stating I studied hard and was worthy of my profession.

And damn, most of my friends were even worst than me.

Papers were a joke. Nothing was reproducible, arguments were barely holding together. Not to say my mates in French universities were geniuses, but the difference is glaring.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#67

Post by mytailorisrich » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 9:22 AM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #52

mytailorisrich wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From experience I don't think the UK is bad. It was very good before Brexit, now obviously people have to jump through a few hoops since there is no free movement with the EU anymore but it's not bad at all and the procedures relatively straightforward. My experience with France is much, much worse, for instance. I don't think the current UK system deters people in itself. It's relative and people take the path of le…

>>now obviously people have to jump through a few hoops since there is no free movement with the EU anymore but it's not bad at all. If by "not bad at all" you mean "previously you could just come over with a 1 day notice and start working immediately" changing to "you literally can't be hired at all unless you fulfill certain criteria that disqualify entire groups of workers" then sure, "not bad at all". At the comp…

Try moving from the EU to the US or from India to the EU.

The EU is very special in that it has internal free movement. Now, obviously the UK has left so it controls immigration from the EU in the same way the EU controls immigration from outside the EU.

Comparatively the UK is not bad. Try having to queue in the street from 6am and be treated like sh*t at a French 'prefecture' every year to renew your resident card...

As for hiring, in tech in the UK, even for junior positions, we have many Indians. It's not a big problem to hire from outside the UK. Again what's happening is that people got so used to how easy it was within the EU that it's a rude awakening to be treated as non-EU, on both sides of the Channel, but that does not make it "dystopian"... It's just the reality of international migration worldwide. Countries do have immigration controls.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#68

Post by JetSetWilly » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 9:23 AM UTC

rich_sasha wrote: post #50

JetSetWilly wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My impression is that another upside Silicon Valley has over the UK is that the US is genuinely a country of immigrants. Whatever hoops you have to jump through to get in or stay, I don't get the impression people are looked down on because they are foreign, once actually on the ground. Which is not so much the case in Brexitania. The UK is easily among the most tolerant and least racist of European countries. In i…

> I don't understand this compulsive need of pro-EU voters to construct massive straw men about brexit voters and Brexit Britain. It is possible and reasonable for a country to decide it doesn't want to be a part of the European "project" without being a racist xenophobic hellhole. No one is taking that right away. No one is saying UK is a xenophobic hellhole. But the "foreigners" en masse are saying they don't like…

I've not noticed any decline in UK immigration as yet. If there is a decline and it is a problem, then the UK has the ability to address it as needed. If there is not a decline then there's not a problem.

Speaking for my own workplace the effect of brexit has been to replace European migrants with more Indian migrants, not to actually reduce migration. Unless you believe that continental Europeans have some unique ability to found startups, I'm not sure there's much to worry about.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#69

Post by ghostwriter » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 9:24 AM UTC

The mentioned "five figures" fees and the language test are peanuts. The journalists are missing the point and do not see that major industries that feed IT sector with new opportunities and contracts (such as entertainment and construction) have already made their mind and have chosen Greater London over EU cities as their primary european hub [1] [2].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqydTPDKQ44 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNXotuREZQ4

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#70

Post by gambiting » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 9:24 AM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #67

gambiting wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>now obviously people have to jump through a few hoops since there is no free movement with the EU anymore but it's not bad at all. If by "not bad at all" you mean "previously you could just come over with a 1 day notice and start working immediately" changing to "you literally can't be hired at all unless you fulfill certain criteria that disqualify entire groups of workers" then sure, "not bad at all". At the comp…

Try moving from the EU to the US or from India to the EU. The EU is very special in that it has internal free movement. Now, obviously the UK has left so it controls immigration from the EU in the same way the EU controls immigration from outside the EU. Comparatively the UK is not bad. Try having to queue in the street from 6am and be treated like sh*t at a French 'prefecture' every year to renew your resident card.…

I know the humiliating experience of having to apply for an american visa as a tourist, so I don't have to imagine, thank you.

And again, just because some people have it worse doesn't mean these issues don't exist. No one at my company is going "well, we suddenly lost access to a job market of 300M people, but well, people from India have it much worse so I guess it's fine".

Like, I get your point, but it's not helpful.