Amazon App Store: Rotten To The Core • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon App Store: Rotten To The Core

#61

Post by tybris » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 6:44 PM UTC

campnic wrote: post #24

rkalla wrote: post #4

What I got from this blog post is that they made an uninformed decision, and ended up with an unexpected result that pissed them off from the perspective of "lost sales". The email from Amazon clarified there were no money to made and sure enough, no money was made. The added costs of the server is unfortunate and justifiably something to be upset about (especially if you weren't accounting for it), but I have to poi…

Your entire response is conjecture. He readily admits he bought into the 20%, got and clarified the 0% offer, debated and went for it. He shows the 54k number as a way of reinforcing the bait-and-switch they are using to lure people into the market, not as a way to say 'i should have been paid $x'. You say 'Amazon gave that company an incredibly aggressive marketing campaign for 1 day' but let me tell you what i see.…

> 'Amazon is building their market on the backs of apps by giving them away for free.

I don't get that. It's just a deal. They could have said no. The rules of the game are clear. Amazon can make your app free unilaterally, but you'll still get 20%. Or, you go into any arbitrary mutual business agreement with them to guarantee that your app gets promoted, at the cost of lower/no revenue. I found the fact that the latter exists informative, but in no way threatening.

My take from this whole thing is that in the technology industry, people are not used to making business deals and get scared when they do.

Re: Amazon App Store: Rotten To The Core

#62

Post by tybris » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 6:49 PM UTC

WalterSear wrote: post #33

tybris wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no reason to think that's not the case. This was a mutual agreement outside of the general terms. That's hardly unusual.

It is amazon's standard policy. Many developers have commented on it.

Their standard policy concerns the unilateral decisions. This was a mutual agreement outside of the standard policy. The benefit to the app maker is a guaranteed free-app-of-the-day promotional spot, the benefit to Amazon is not having to pay the 20%. Seems like a (potentially) fair deal.

Re: Amazon App Store: Rotten To The Core

#63

Post by hn_decay » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 6:51 PM UTC

dhimes wrote: post #21

rkalla wrote: post #4

What I got from this blog post is that they made an uninformed decision, and ended up with an unexpected result that pissed them off from the perspective of "lost sales". The email from Amazon clarified there were no money to made and sure enough, no money was made. The added costs of the server is unfortunate and justifiably something to be upset about (especially if you weren't accounting for it), but I have to poi…

For me the most important part of the story is this: Did the exposure count for much in the days afterwards? That’s also a big no, the day after saw a blip in sales, followed by things going back to exactly where we started, selling a few apps a day .

For me the most important part of the story is this

How so? Why would there be any expectation that sales would spike in the proximity of the app being a featured freebie? Does the grocery store sell more chocolate milk before or after a sale?

I would imagine quite the opposite really.

However I would revisit the situation in a few months. The app world, especially on Android, is very much one where word of mouth rules. "What app do you guys like for managing/listening to podcasts?" Having a lot of people who now have a vested interest in this app (because they think that they got a deal on it, and that it has monetary worth that wouldn't be there if it was just a normal trial or long-term freebie) yields a lot of people who may very well promote this app.

We'll see.

This whole entry sounds a little bizarre, however. The author got exactly what they should have expected. Where is the rot? There is a unexplained spitefulness that I'm just not understanding.

Re: Amazon App Store: Rotten To The Core

#64

Post by campnic » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 7:18 PM UTC

tybris wrote: post #61

campnic wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your entire response is conjecture. He readily admits he bought into the 20%, got and clarified the 0% offer, debated and went for it. He shows the 54k number as a way of reinforcing the bait-and-switch they are using to lure people into the market, not as a way to say 'i should have been paid $x'. You say 'Amazon gave that company an incredibly aggressive marketing campaign for 1 day' but let me tell you what i see.…

> 'Amazon is building their market on the backs of apps by giving them away for free. I don't get that. It's just a deal. They could have said no. The rules of the game are clear. Amazon can make your app free unilaterally, but you'll still get 20%. Or, you go into any arbitrary mutual business agreement with them to guarantee that your app gets promoted, at the cost of lower/no revenue. I found the fact that the lat…

I don't wish to be mistaken, my shot was more about making the logical opposite argument then making a solid description of what Amazon has done. I did read the article as critical of Amazon but I agree that the author didn't get more or less then he explicitly agreed to and that Amazon does offer something in return.

Re: Amazon App Store: Rotten To The Core

#65

Post by kelnos » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 7:27 PM UTC

rkalla wrote: post #29

shiftyjelly wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I just reply here? Here goes. I think you missed the entire point of the article. We agreed to be featured, we stand by that decision. What we take issue with is the public perception that Amazon pays their (publicly stated) 20% of the asking price for developers to be featured. They don't. Simple as that. Everything else is a beef, yes, but not our primary beef. Also we left it a month, we got featured June 27th…

shifty, Admittedly, my response was focused more on the other beef than that single point. Given how much other information was in the post, I didn't think the 20% == 0% was the central argument; my apologies for missing that. My core belief that in the long(er) term that the give away likely would have helped the movement and sales of your app still stands though. I think you leaving it in the store for an extra mon…

Fine, it happened... but you also have your app on 101k more devices than you did the month before so do something with that, flip your perspective a bit and take advantage of it.

Hell, before pulling out of the Amazon app store, release a new ad-supported version, and wait until a decent number of people have upgraded. Then pull out of Amazon's store. That should help defray the costs of the new hardware. Users can still do as the author suggested: re-buy on Android Market, and for users who had already paid for the app (not on free-app day), ask for a refund. Any serious user of the app will want to switch over to the Android Market anyway, so they can get later updates.

That feels slightly underhanded, but... eh. Server costs are real.

Re: Amazon App Store: Rotten To The Core

#66

Post by kemiller » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 7:27 PM UTC

My understanding was that the 20% figure applies only to cases where Amazon changes the pricing of your app without your specific approval (which they can do). There is apparently enough demand for the top spot that they can ask the developer to take the hit. Up to them whether they do or not.

Re: Amazon App Store: Rotten To The Core

#67

Post by irons » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 7:33 PM UTC

tybris wrote: post #61

campnic wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your entire response is conjecture. He readily admits he bought into the 20%, got and clarified the 0% offer, debated and went for it. He shows the 54k number as a way of reinforcing the bait-and-switch they are using to lure people into the market, not as a way to say 'i should have been paid $x'. You say 'Amazon gave that company an incredibly aggressive marketing campaign for 1 day' but let me tell you what i see.…

> 'Amazon is building their market on the backs of apps by giving them away for free. I don't get that. It's just a deal. They could have said no. The rules of the game are clear. Amazon can make your app free unilaterally, but you'll still get 20%. Or, you go into any arbitrary mutual business agreement with them to guarantee that your app gets promoted, at the cost of lower/no revenue. I found the fact that the lat…

I found the fact that the latter exists informative, but in no way threatening.

Why does it have to be "threatening" to be newsworthy?

Re: Amazon App Store: Rotten To The Core

#68

Post by dlikhten » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 7:38 PM UTC

rkalla wrote: post #4

What I got from this blog post is that they made an uninformed decision, and ended up with an unexpected result that pissed them off from the perspective of "lost sales". The email from Amazon clarified there were no money to made and sure enough, no money was made. The added costs of the server is unfortunate and justifiably something to be upset about (especially if you weren't accounting for it), but I have to poi…

"For an app selling 10-20 copies a day, how much would it have cost that company, paying a PR firm, to get it infront of 101k new users (forget about payment)... how many tweets would you have to get out or blog posts written to make 101k people aware of your app? Amazon gave that company an incredibly aggressive marketing campaign for 1 day and from where I'm standing, gave that company an enormous opportunity to be successful with a future app or future subscription services for their existing app."

There is a big difference between paying for 100k of paid users marketing campaign and getting 100k free users. When you pay for a campaign you know the amount you target and are willing to spend. From that you know what the expenses will be.

The free campaign meant 100k users unexpectadly got the app, then normal everything continued. Point being that 100k people like a free app. Angry birds was already popular prior to Amazon Store.

So the question is that did the free day give ANYTHING to any developer, lets assume zero server costs. Did the app give anything? The app benefits amazon because people use amazon store vs google store, the 100k users = user outreach, server infrastructure, damage control, reaching out to users to rate, etc. And for the day you devalue your app making paid customers feel stupid for not waiting.

Re: Amazon App Store: Rotten To The Core

#69

Post by irons » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 7:47 PM UTC

rkalla wrote: post #50

mbateman wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally it seems like you're expecting the OP to take on your perspective without really taking his perspective seriously. Just saying you have a "core belief" that waiting longer would help doesn't really seem like a fair point. Why don't server/support costs matter? Why does it have to be that it's more beneficial for these guys to have their software on 100k more devices than not? Why should all business models…

That is a fair point, I don't think the OP's complaint about the 20-to-0 switch was invalid, but I do skip past it to try and look at what kind of benefit can be squeezed from their current predicament instead of scorching the earth and walking away. Thank you for the feedback.

The OP clearly decided that not doing business with Amazon was the right choice for their business, and Amazon richly deserves the scorching.

Amazon looked like it was setting up an app store where Android developers had a hope of getting paid, but so far, they've created a space where the control-freakism runs deeper than under Apple (e.g., the lack of control over basics like device filtering and removing apps from sale), and the return on investment is worse than under Google.

Re: Amazon App Store: Rotten To The Core

#70

Post by shaggyfrog » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 8:07 PM UTC

jonknee wrote: post #51

funkah wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon's money.

Amazon's didn't make any money either, it was a free app. I doubt your average downloader thought for one second about the relationship between Amazon and the developer. They saw free, they downloaded. Who other than the app developer and Amazon care one bit about the financials of the deal? When I see a great sale in a store I don't care if it's the store or the manufacturer taking a hit.

> Amazon didn't make any money either

They certainly derived value from the transaction. By giving away a free app a day, Amazon drives customers to its marketplace, and its brand. To suggest that Amazon's intentions are purely altruistic is naive.