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Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

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Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#61

Post by mrtksn »

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #50
mrtksn wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's going to be a hell for the users and the smaller developers. Devs will have to support multiple platforms, different API and options. Also different legal arrangements would be needed as each country has different laws and processes. Remember the agreements and forms we fill for different countries when we want to sell paid apps/features on App Store? I also can't wait to pay account fees for many app stores and…

“Allow other payment platforms” is not the same as “Demand devs to support them all”, I don’t know between which lines you must have read it.

Sure, You can't have platform fragmentation costs if you don't support platforms.

You only support them if you want to reach the customers. That's exactly the same as not supporting Android or iOS or not getting into App Development in first place.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#62

Post by misnome »

simondotau wrote: post #39
simondotau wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the FSF, the distribution of a binary computer program which substantially relies upon GPL libraries is considered a derivative work and would require you to abide by the terms of the GPL license. Similarly, an iOS app which substantially relies upon (and must be compiled with) Apple's libraries in order to work is subject to whatever the terms Apple includes in their software license. Of course Apple is…

To the people down-voting this, I realise that my post espouses a controversial opinion for Hacker News. But could you please explain what you disagree with?

> which substantially relies upon GPL libraries is considered a derivative work and would be a GPL violation if it's distributed without source code.

I didn't vote either way, but I'm not sure that this is the way the GPL works. As I understand it, you can distribute only binaries as long as you supply _on request_ the source code. FWIW the link to the GPL reads as quite tenuous and what I would guess the downvotes were for.

> Similarly, an iOS app which substantially relies upon Apple's libraries in order to work is subject to whatever the terms Apple includes in their software license

Yes, they are free to do what they want, barring regulation. Which is what this is. Deliberately loopholing around the legislation is an option, but a risky manoeuvre that might just invite more legislation.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#63

Post by simondotau »

ethbr0 wrote: post #51
mrtksn wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's going to be a hell for the users and the smaller developers. Devs will have to support multiple platforms, different API and options. Also different legal arrangements would be needed as each country has different laws and processes. Remember the agreements and forms we fill for different countries when we want to sell paid apps/features on App Store? I also can't wait to pay account fees for many app stores and…

Developers (and users) deserve choice . If you want to pay 30% to Apple to take care of that for you, then you should be able to. If someone else doesn't want to pay 30% to Apple, then they should have that right too. I've lived through both fragmented platforms and unified platforms, and I'll take the former any day. They're messy, but fair and dynamic. And critically, they evolve and allow new competition to emerge…

> If someone else doesn't want to pay 30% to Apple, then they should have that right

That right? Are you saying developers should have the right to all of Apple's stuff for free, no matter what? Is Apple not allowed to distribute their tools and libraries under a license of their choosing?

Should we ignore licenses altogether? Perhaps I don't want to pay the "cost" associated with use of a GPL-licensed library in my proprietary application. Should I have the right to just ignore the GPL license?

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#64

Post by misnome »

stale2002 wrote: post #25

So, everything else that has happened up to now, could be described as minor losses, for Apple and Google. This is not such a case though. This is a major loss for them. For all the hacker new commenters, who have been commenting on this topic, for the year that the drama has been going on, and were convinced that Apple and Google were going to win this fight.... well you need to re-evaluate what made you think that.…

> For all the hacker new commenters, who have been commenting on this topic, for the year that the drama has been going on, and were convinced that Apple and Google were going to win this fight.... well you need to re-evaluate what made you think that.

Or perhaps you need to go re-read the comments? I don't recall people writing "Apple and Google are in the right and deserve to win" as much as I recall people writing "Apple and Google are wrong and deserve to lose" and "30% is unfair os they deserve to lose", and people pointing out that the current system does have benefits.

I recall people saying that they don't think their behaviour is outright illegal, or doesn't qualify as antitrust in the US. Obviously regulation supersedes this.

In fact, making regulatory laws to force changes in the way they are behaving, implies that it's not illegal now, so seems to vindicate the people saying that?

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#65

Post by [deleted] »

vbezhenar wrote: post #42
bubblethink wrote: post #12

Is there a better source and the text of the law ? Payment systems are a proxy for the fee since there isn't an explicit publishing fee. It would be quite straightforward for both Apple and Google to charge a publishing fee, which may end up close to the current rent. The larger issue is that there aren't alternative app stores. Apple doesn't allow them at all, and Google severely restricts them at the technical and…

There are plenty of alternative app stores for Android. Google restricts them, but not severely. Android 12 will lift some important restrictions from alternative app stores. I'm not trying to portrait Google as innocent, there's still work to be done. But they are absolutely in different leagues with Apple when it comes to user freedom.

[deleted]

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#66

Post by yobbo »

mrtksn wrote: post #40
stirlo wrote: post #4

Finally. This is exactly how regulators should respond to the market abuse of these technology monopolies. If they wanted to head this off all they had to do was pay a reasonable amount of tax in the country where the revenue was generated and offer a reasonable (single percentage) fee for facilitating payments. They chose not to so they reap what they sow

It's going to be a hell for the users and the smaller developers. Devs will have to support multiple platforms, different API and options. Also different legal arrangements would be needed as each country has different laws and processes. Remember the agreements and forms we fill for different countries when we want to sell paid apps/features on App Store? I also can't wait to pay account fees for many app stores and…

> I despise platform fragmentations

It is fair to point out that "platform fragmentation" occurs because of the policies of Apple and Google, not because of regulation.

If they had some altruistic care for user/dev experience, the platforms would be open and frictionless to begin with. Their aim is to insert friction at all points of interoperability, and remove friction inside of their own platform.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#67

Post by mrtksn »

keithnz wrote: post #49
mrtksn wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's going to be a hell for the users and the smaller developers. Devs will have to support multiple platforms, different API and options. Also different legal arrangements would be needed as each country has different laws and processes. Remember the agreements and forms we fill for different countries when we want to sell paid apps/features on App Store? I also can't wait to pay account fees for many app stores and…

I saw nothing saying you can't still use them.

Sure, you can do dev work for Windows Phone Store. That doesn't mean that it's as rewarding as doing work for Apple AppStore.

The fragmentation will not open the floodgate for all the users out there who were holding off because they didn't want to use App Store or Play Store. It's going to be the exact same userbase but there will be more gatekeepers to deal with.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#68

Post by jpambrun »

simondotau wrote: post #63
ethbr0 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers (and users) deserve choice . If you want to pay 30% to Apple to take care of that for you, then you should be able to. If someone else doesn't want to pay 30% to Apple, then they should have that right too. I've lived through both fragmented platforms and unified platforms, and I'll take the former any day. They're messy, but fair and dynamic. And critically, they evolve and allow new competition to emerge…

> If someone else doesn't want to pay 30% to Apple, then they should have that right That right? Are you saying developers should have the right to all of Apple's stuff for free, no matter what? Is Apple not allowed to distribute their tools and libraries under a license of their choosing? Should we ignore licenses altogether? Perhaps I don't want to pay the "cost" associated with use of a GPL-licensed library in my…

This argument is nonsensical.. I should be able to use my fully-paid-for device how I see fit.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#70

Post by lotsofpulp »

stirlo wrote: post #4

Finally. This is exactly how regulators should respond to the market abuse of these technology monopolies. If they wanted to head this off all they had to do was pay a reasonable amount of tax in the country where the revenue was generated and offer a reasonable (single percentage) fee for facilitating payments. They chose not to so they reap what they sow

> If they wanted to head this off all they had to do was pay a reasonable amount of tax in the country where the revenue was generated

Like a donation? Or are these companies evading tax laws?

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