How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#61

Post by pojzon » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 6:29 AM UTC

epicureanideal wrote: post #9

(By the way, I’m writing this from a place of exhaustion and disappointment with the industry, rather than just knee jerk negativity.) Although I do think it’s worthwhile to try to think and communicate as clearly as possible, over the years I’ve learned in this industry that 90% or more of coworkers and managers are not going to put the same effort into it. You can do everything right and the majority of the time it…

IMHO It highly depends on company you work in. Company culture to hire only ppl with high values like you can push you further.

If company hiring fails and gets too many self-centred ppl in, you land in the situation like you describe.

It ofcourse makes it very frustrating and as someone in similar situation you describe my only option to change it is to jump the ship.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#62

Post by afarrell » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 6:57 AM UTC

axiolite wrote: post #59

afarrell wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> never received the information that Mr X promised If you re-read the above, you’ll notice that Mr X never promised to have the data. He instead said he lacked the data. One reason a person can end up losing credibility and making lots of excuses is that they are overcommitted. “I do not have time” might sound like an excuse, but it is genuinely possible to work 80-hour weeks on 5 hours of sleep and still be unable…

> you’ll notice that Mr X never promised to have the data. He instead said he lacked the data. I don't know what the actual situation was, but what the parent typed seemed to indicate Mr X was implying he could provide his data later (but based on past experience, never will): > "I don't have the data right now" — and it will never be provided I'm all for people working a reasonable number of hours and getting plenty…

I changed teams and went on a meditation retreat. Things are much better.

Your larger point is correct up until the point where the decision is “I, Mr. X am not going to take on that additional work.” Until Mr. X exercises the autonomy to say “no”, he will always be overwhelmed and struggle to think and speak clearly. Until others trust him when he claims something is hard and are willing to take no for an answer, their distrust will make him untrustworthy.

It is a vicious cycle.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#63

Post by afarrell » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 7:00 AM UTC

lmm wrote: post #60

afarrell wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only thing that (almost) guarantees good relationships with management is to just do whatever they want even when it is leading the company to ruin, never voice your objections, etc. This is correct but the implication is that a good career means having the courage to accept the risk of poor relationships with management and to be willing to end an unhealthy relationship.

The implication is that a company where a substantial proportion of employees had that view would be more successful, but how does that translate to a good career for those employees?

Those employees will leave unhealthy relationships for ones which are better for their career.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#64

Post by toosimplee » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 7:14 AM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #15

In my own life, I have spent many, many years, dealing with some of the most difficult people on Earth. Many, who have yet to learn the tools of nonviolent (as in "Not picking up a chair, and breaking it over your head" nonviolent) feedback. There's something to be said for trying to confront someone that could break you in two, has severe psych issues, and Bic-pen-ink tattoos. It sort of helps you to focus on outcom…

I like that conversation style when I see other people apply it, but in a specific situation it's hard for me to say what the main point is. In the Big Butch conversation, it can lead to totally different outcomes if you choose to do something for Butch (instead of "riding the high horse"), check in with Cathy, or focus the conversation on the topic you entered the conversation with.

All are possible paths, all lead to different outcomes that might interest you. How do you know on the spot that the issue you came with is more relevant than the new information you just learned from Butch?

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#65

Post by muntzy » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 7:38 AM UTC

hanniabu wrote: post #4

muntzy wrote: post #2

On the topic I often recommend the great book Hard Conversations , and another by the same authors Thanks for the Feedback . They give a detailed breakdown of how communication actually works so that my overly technical brain can apply it.

Willing to take a shot at a quick tldr?

a google search turns up some thorough summaries. I would best sum it up with “The most common error made in communication is incorrectly assuming that it has occurred”. Communication is a skill that I see mostly taken for granted once people have a functional level, but it goes deep. It’s tied up with your self awareness, blind spots, etc. and so debugging your speaking and listening skills is a lifelong thing. These books lay out all the layers of assumption, bias, and miscommunication that happen by default in most conversations, and how to recognize them and take charge of a conversation and fix them.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#66

Post by ChrisMarshallNY » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 9:11 AM UTC

toosimplee wrote: post #64

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #15

In my own life, I have spent many, many years, dealing with some of the most difficult people on Earth. Many, who have yet to learn the tools of nonviolent (as in "Not picking up a chair, and breaking it over your head" nonviolent) feedback. There's something to be said for trying to confront someone that could break you in two, has severe psych issues, and Bic-pen-ink tattoos. It sort of helps you to focus on outcom…

I like that conversation style when I see other people apply it, but in a specific situation it's hard for me to say what the main point is. In the Big Butch conversation, it can lead to totally different outcomes if you choose to do something for Butch (instead of "riding the high horse"), check in with Cathy, or focus the conversation on the topic you entered the conversation with. All are possible paths, all lead…

In my experience, human interaction is always complex. It’s only in sitcoms and Dwayne Johnson movies, where people are 1-dimensional. Everywhere else, people (and situations) are a bit more complex.

This means that I have found “hard and fast rules” to be of limited utility, and I always need to exercise discretion.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#67

Post by epicureanideal » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 9:23 AM UTC

afarrell wrote: post #63

lmm wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implication is that a company where a substantial proportion of employees had that view would be more successful, but how does that translate to a good career for those employees?

Those employees will leave unhealthy relationships for ones which are better for their career.

And that’s why I’m asking, where would those better workplaces be? I’ve worked at quite a few companies at this point, and although it’s true that some teams are better than others, the general pattern has been that incentives are not well aligned in any company I’ve seen.

Any company with proper alignment of incentives would crush the majority of existing startups. But as I said, such a company won’t be funded.

The winners in the current economy are those with access to huge buckets of capital rather than those who can most effectively deploy that capital. And if they’re only competing against others with huge buckets of capital but not highly effective strategies, then they all compete at that same low level of strategy.

Imagine a situation where you have dozens of restaurants all run by people who are mediocre but semi competent chefs and mediocre but semi competent business people. Meanwhile you have great chefs and great business people working a few steps beneath them. And yet the first group has access to buckets of capital to start restaurants and hire people and the second group doesn’t have the right connections. That’s what the software industry looks like to me after a long time working in it.

No problem, start your own. Except the first group with access to buckets of capital will be able to advertise far more, keep prices cheaper, and so on, so you’ll be out competed in the marketplace despite better skills simply due to their access to huge amounts of money. Even if you are far more effective at deploying the smaller amount of capital you have.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#68

Post by tonyedgecombe » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 9:37 AM UTC

epicureanideal wrote: post #9

(By the way, I’m writing this from a place of exhaustion and disappointment with the industry, rather than just knee jerk negativity.) Although I do think it’s worthwhile to try to think and communicate as clearly as possible, over the years I’ve learned in this industry that 90% or more of coworkers and managers are not going to put the same effort into it. You can do everything right and the majority of the time it…

>If anyone is aware of an environment where meritocracy exists in this industry I’d love to know about it.

Did you know the term meritocracy was originally intended as a negative idea[1]. The value of modern work is so subjective that it's almost impossible to measure. It's probably best to jettison any idea that you will be promoted based on any sort of rational assessment.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/25/world/michael-young-86-sc...

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#69

Post by epicureanideal » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 9:37 AM UTC

rented_mule wrote: post #53

epicureanideal wrote: post #9

(By the way, I’m writing this from a place of exhaustion and disappointment with the industry, rather than just knee jerk negativity.) Although I do think it’s worthwhile to try to think and communicate as clearly as possible, over the years I’ve learned in this industry that 90% or more of coworkers and managers are not going to put the same effort into it. You can do everything right and the majority of the time it…

I've spent almost all of the last decade as a first and second level manager and recently returned to an IC engineering role. I don't think any company large enough to have a handful of managers has homogeneity in what you're talking about. The worst companies for engineers to work at have pockets of bliss (been there). Fantastic companies have pockets of despair (been there, too). And any given pocket doesn't look t…

I did read your whole comment and I appreciate the time and thought and effort you put into it.

Even so, this isn’t the situation I’m describing or that exists in most of the industry. You’re describing an idealized version of a possible honest misunderstanding developing due to incomplete information filtering through the organization.

I don’t believe that accounts for a large percentage of the problem I’m describing. The situation you’re describing would be far more functional than many places I’ve worked. If most management were capable of introspection and analysis at the level you’re demonstrating, the problem I’m talking about would be significantly reduced. It seems you’ve worked in some unusually capable companies.

Re: How to deliver constructive feedback in difficult situations (2019)

#70

Post by beckman466 » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 10:24 AM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #68

epicureanideal wrote: post #9

(By the way, I’m writing this from a place of exhaustion and disappointment with the industry, rather than just knee jerk negativity.) Although I do think it’s worthwhile to try to think and communicate as clearly as possible, over the years I’ve learned in this industry that 90% or more of coworkers and managers are not going to put the same effort into it. You can do everything right and the majority of the time it…

>If anyone is aware of an environment where meritocracy exists in this industry I’d love to know about it. Did you know the term meritocracy was originally intended as a negative idea[1]. The value of modern work is so subjective that it's almost impossible to measure. It's probably best to jettison any idea that you will be promoted based on any sort of rational assessment. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/25/wor…

> [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/25/world/michael-young-86-sc...

"But it was ''The Rise of the Meritocracy'' that made Mr. Young world famous. Written as a doctoral dissertation looking back from the year 2034, the book described the emergence of a new elite determined not by social position but by achievement on the standardized intelligence tests that were a very real, and dreaded, fact of educational life in 20th-century Britain. To name this new elite, Mr. Young forced the marriage of a Latin root to a Greek suffix, yielding ''meritocracy.''

He meant the term as a pejorative, for underneath the mock academic tract lay bitter social commentary. Though the test-based system of advancement emerging in postwar Britain appeared to provide opportunity for all, it was, Mr. Young argued, simply the centuries-old class system in sheep's clothing.

Lacking access to the best schools, underprivileged children routinely did badly on the 11-plus exam, the test given to children after sixth grade that largely determined their professional future. As a result, the disadvantaged remained at the bottom of the social ladder, their poor scores used to justify the status quo. ''The Rise of the Meritocracy'' became an international best seller and was credited with leading to the abolition of the 11-plus in Britain."

Non-paywalled link: https://archive.is/A17Uw