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U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

reuters.com

61–70 of 507 posts

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#61
post #3

This is why I believe the approach of incremental improvement towards full self driving is fundamentally flawed. These advanced driver assist tools are good enough to lull users into a false sense of security. No amount of "but our terms and conditions say you need to always pay attention!" will overcome human nature building that trust and dependence.

It depends. As long as the resulting package (flawed self driving system + the average driver) isn't significantly more dangerous than the average unassisted human driver, I don't consider it irresponsible to deploy it. "The average driver" includes everyone, ranging from drivers using it as intended with close supervision, drivers who become inattentive because nothing is happening, and drivers who think it's a reas…

> drivers using it as intended with close supervision

Doesn't this hide a paradox? Using a self-driving car as intended implies that the driver relinquishes a part of the human decision making process to the car. While close supervision implies that the driver can always take control back from the car, and therefore carries full personal responsibility of what happens.

The caveat here is that the car might make decisions in a rapidly changing, complex context which the driver might disagree with, but has no time to correct for through manual intervention. e.g. hitting a cyclist because the autonomous system made an erroneous assertion.

Here's another way of looking at this: if you're in a self-driving car, are you a passenger or a driver? Do you intend to drive the car yourself or let the car transport you to your destination?

In the unassisted scenario, it's clear that both intentions are one and the same. If you want to get to your location, you can't but drive the car yourself. Therefore you can't but assume full personal responsibility for your driving. Can the same be said about a vehicle that's specifically designed and marketed as "self-driving" and "autonomous"?

As a driver, you don't just relinquish part of the decision making process to the car, what essentially happens is that you put your trust in how the machine learning processes that steer the car were taught to perceive the world by their manufacturer. So, if both car and occupant disagree and the ensuing result is an accident, who's at fault? The car? The occupant? The manufacturer? Or the person seeking damages because their dog ended up wounded?

The issue here isn't that self-driving cars are inherently more dangerous then their "dumb" counter parts. It's that driving a self-driving car creates it's own separate class of liabilities and questions regarding responsible driving when accidents do happen.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#62
post #10
post #3

This is why I believe the approach of incremental improvement towards full self driving is fundamentally flawed. These advanced driver assist tools are good enough to lull users into a false sense of security. No amount of "but our terms and conditions say you need to always pay attention!" will overcome human nature building that trust and dependence.

that's not human nature, that's user stupidity

[deleted]

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#63
post #3

This is why I believe the approach of incremental improvement towards full self driving is fundamentally flawed. These advanced driver assist tools are good enough to lull users into a false sense of security. No amount of "but our terms and conditions say you need to always pay attention!" will overcome human nature building that trust and dependence.

I actually disagree. (And before you respond, please read my post because it’s not a trivial point.) The fact that an huge formal investigation happened with just a single casualty is proof that it may actually be superior for safety in the long-term (when combined with feedback from regulators and government investigators). One death in conventional vehicles is irrelevant. But because of the high profile of Tesla’s…

This argument is flawed, because when regulators investigate a Tesla crash, Waymo doesn't care the slightest. The technologies (emphasis on having skeuomorphic cameras vs a lidar), approaches (emphasis on generating as many situations as possible in simulated worlds and carefully transitioning to the business case vs testing as early in the real world with background data captation) and results are so different between the actors in this specific industry that one's flaws being fixed or improved won't necessarily translate into others benefitting from it.

Conversely, when Waymo iterates and improves their own safety ratios by a significant amount, that evidently does not result in Tesla's improving in return.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#64

I drive a lot across Europe: as in, really a lot, long trip across several countries, several times a year. I drive enough on the highways to know a few scary situations, like the truck driver in a big curve slightly deviating out of his lane and "pushing" me dangerously close to the median strip for example. To me driving requires paying constant attention to the road and being always ready to act swiftly: I just do…

These are exactly my arguments to my girlfriend on why she shouldn’t use the Autopilot on our Tesla. Your mind will stray, the feature is exactly meant to do that to you. The feedback loop goes the wrong way. Then boom you don’t see emergency vehicles at a wreck apparently. I do blame Elon, he did the Silicon Valley thing of just promise a lot of untested stuff before the laws have solidified. Uber, Lime scooters, etc. The Tesla is a great car, but self-driving is orders of magnitude harder than he thinks.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually disagree. (And before you respond, please read my post because it’s not a trivial point.) The fact that an huge formal investigation happened with just a single casualty is proof that it may actually be superior for safety in the long-term (when combined with feedback from regulators and government investigators). One death in conventional vehicles is irrelevant. But because of the high profile of Tesla’s…

I largely agree with you, but I just wish regulators would start by only allowing these assist programs for people that are already known to be poor drivers. The elderly and convicted drunk drivers, for example. That way we could have the best of both worlds.

Incentivizing drunk driving seems dangerous.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#66
post #5

Unfortunately the article doesn't mention anything about how common it is for human drivers to crash into first responder vehicles during the night. I'm not trying to downplay these cases, as hitting emergency vehicles is very bad indeed, yet ~4 such crashes per year might be in the same ballpark or even better than "unassisted" drivers that cause such crashes.

frankly, it's hard to even crash into an emerfency in my opinion while actually driving snd paying attention given tgeir lights have gotten so darn bright it's damn near blinding. frankly, I have to slow to a crawl not out of rubbernecking fascination, butout of self preservation to adapt to the dang lighting searing my retinas at night.

now running into unlit emergency vehicles? still think tgat's rather difficult sans inebriation or sleep dep.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#67
post #3

This is why I believe the approach of incremental improvement towards full self driving is fundamentally flawed. These advanced driver assist tools are good enough to lull users into a false sense of security. No amount of "but our terms and conditions say you need to always pay attention!" will overcome human nature building that trust and dependence.

We have an education problem. People have no idea what computers do because they're illiterate (literacy would mean knowing at least one language well enough to read and write in it) so they just take other people's word that they can do some magical thing with software updates. The most extreme examples of this were the iPhone hoaxes telling people that software updates provided waterproofing or microwave charging.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#68
post #23

Glad the regulators are looking into this. It bothers me that now Tesla seems to have no liability at all for the system not working, since it's always the driver's fault for not paying enough attention. As Teslas get better at driving the drivers will be paying less attention inevitably, Tesla needs to start being responsible at some point

Every year young drivers die because they were inexperienced and didn't realize they were going too fast to too slow for a certain situation.

Once full self driving is statistically safer than humans how will you not let people use it? It is like saying you would rather have 10 children die because of bad driving skills rather than 1 child die because they were not paying attention at all times.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#69

> In one of the cases, a doctor was watching a movie on a phone when his vehicle rammed into a state trooper in North Carolina. Doesn't autopilot require you to put your hands on the wheel fairly regularly? Are these incidents just a matter of people using this feature outside of its intended use case?

One hand on his phone one hand on the wheel, I assume.

Newer versions of Autopilot watch to make sure you keep your eyes on the road, probably to prevent this very scenario[1].

[1]: https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/27/22457430/tesla-in-car-cam...

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#70
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a Subaru Forester base model with lane keeping and adaptive cruise control. I need to be touching the wheel and applying some force to it or it begins yelling at me and eventually brings me slowly to a stop. I’ve had it for a year now and I cannot perceive of a way, without physically altering the system (like hanging a weight from the wheel maybe?) that would allow me to stop being an active participant. I th…

Shove a can of soda in the wheel and it will stop beeping.

yes, but what if you also have to sing the jingle?

Damn, this 'drink verification can' is going to get us all killed.

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