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Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

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Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#61

Post by jacquesm »

pjmlp wrote: post #11

I remember having seen a similar scene in a couple of times by now. I guess we will be getting an Hollywood version of the facts in 10 years timeframe. My heart goes to those that died for nothing, and those that will now face the revenge of Talibans.

Plenty of those that helped the Americans and other troops are now facing gruesome execution by the Taliban. Translators, people working for them in any capacity, teachers, they're all on the run fearing for their lives. Turkey is overrun by a wave of people getting out of Afghanistan.

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#62

Post by pjc50 »

CapricornNoble wrote: post #46
yalogin wrote: post #32

What a failure of the US armed forces here. 20 damn years staying in the country with the only 2 goal - to help Afghans build an army and help defend themselves and to eradicate the Taliban. They failed miserably in both. Trillions spent and many lost lives. Why would we ever pour money into such a terrible, incompetent system? Of course, the cycle keeps repeating itself and we keep growing the military.

>>>Why would we ever pour money into such a terrible, incompetent system? Not that the US DoD is in any way a model of efficiency, but I suspect you are vastly underestimating the difficulty of the problem set. Over the past 200 years, the British, Soviet, and American empires have all failed to pacify Afghanistan. Probably the Mongols and Alexander the Great struggled too, I need to dig into the history of those cam…

> multi-decade delaying action to stymie Chinese expansion for as long as possible?

That wasn't in the original brief, and I've never heard it before in the 20 years?

Frankly if it's an expensive unpacifiable area, let China have it. They can sink effort into an unwinnable war instead.

Also, having consulted a map, how do you expect China to physically get there?

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#63

Post by [deleted] »

sneak wrote: post #39
yalogin wrote: post #32

What a failure of the US armed forces here. 20 damn years staying in the country with the only 2 goal - to help Afghans build an army and help defend themselves and to eradicate the Taliban. They failed miserably in both. Trillions spent and many lost lives. Why would we ever pour money into such a terrible, incompetent system? Of course, the cycle keeps repeating itself and we keep growing the military.

I think it’s more a failure of the people who sent them there than the forces themselves. This is a management issue. For all of the failings of the current US president, getting the hell out of an endless, unnecessary war is a good thing.

[deleted]

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#64

Post by erklik »

yyyk wrote: post #25
Clewza313 wrote: post #3

Fall of Saigon v2. Although I have to say the speed at which the Taliban took over once the US pulled out is pretty astonishing: it's clear they have a strong level of popular support.

In these parts of the world, 'defecting to the winning side' is a basic survival skill. As soon as the US stopped its support it was obvious who'd win (the people still getting state support from Pakistan). So why should a smart faction fight and die? To make the people who aren't there anymore look better?

The amount of support Pakistan provides Taliban is severly overblown. Did they provide them refuge when Taliban was on the back foot? Sure, probably.

Is Pakistan aiding them in this current offense? It really doesn't seem like it.

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#65

Post by captain_price7 »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #31
Clewza313 wrote: post #3

Fall of Saigon v2. Although I have to say the speed at which the Taliban took over once the US pulled out is pretty astonishing: it's clear they have a strong level of popular support.

The corruption is so bad soldiers in hospitals starved to death. It's clear that in the past 30 years afganistan did not have a functioning government at all. Its not about popular support, its a failure of 'statebuilding' https://observers.france24.com/en/20200218-afghanistan-corru...

And then there were "phantom soldiers"- it's the practice where officers would just create non-existent soldiers to pocket their salary.

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#66

Post by hulitu »

baybal2 wrote: post #23
Clewza313 wrote: post #3

Fall of Saigon v2. Although I have to say the speed at which the Taliban took over once the US pulled out is pretty astonishing: it's clear they have a strong level of popular support.

> I have to say the speed at which the Taliban took over once the US pulled out is pretty astonishing: it's clear they have a strong level of popular support. The explanation is very, very simple, but I don't see any Western media talking about it at all. Basically, Afghan government fell apart when USA withdrew the pork barrel of military contracts from locals. People forget that 20 years ago USA mounted all kinds o…

This was always the view of Americans: Monry can buy everything. While it may be true for their democracy it is not true for other things that people value.

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#67

Post by jacquesm »

trainsplanes wrote: post #52
Clewza313 wrote: post #3

Fall of Saigon v2. Although I have to say the speed at which the Taliban took over once the US pulled out is pretty astonishing: it's clear they have a strong level of popular support.

Vietnam ultimately became a pretty nice country a few years after the US government finally gave up on trying to turn it into hell on earth, and it’s only getting better. If this really is Saigon 2.0, 20 years from now Afghanistan will be a peaceful country with active tourism. With the Taliban seemingly making efforts to appease China for economic gain, who knows, it just might happen.

Very unlikely, a version of Algeria 2.0 is far more likely than Vietnam 2.0.

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#68

Post by yyyk »

CapricornNoble wrote: post #46
yalogin wrote: post #32

What a failure of the US armed forces here. 20 damn years staying in the country with the only 2 goal - to help Afghans build an army and help defend themselves and to eradicate the Taliban. They failed miserably in both. Trillions spent and many lost lives. Why would we ever pour money into such a terrible, incompetent system? Of course, the cycle keeps repeating itself and we keep growing the military.

>>>Why would we ever pour money into such a terrible, incompetent system? Not that the US DoD is in any way a model of efficiency, but I suspect you are vastly underestimating the difficulty of the problem set. Over the past 200 years, the British, Soviet, and American empires have all failed to pacify Afghanistan. Probably the Mongols and Alexander the Great struggled too, I need to dig into the history of those cam…

The British actually got their war goals despite losing most of the time. That's why the Pashtun are divided by a line the British made. The Soviets managed to create a state that outlasted them, stopping the equivalent mujahideen attack in its tracks[0]. That state only fell when the USSR itself fell. The US failure is exceptional in the amount of resources cost, the quickness of collapse, and in failure to reach objectives.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Civil_War_(1989%E2%80%9...

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#69

Post by belter »

Wars are won by men willing to die for their cause. The US, Canadian and many other soldiers who helped liberate Europe in the 2nd World War were willing to die for freedom. And the Taliban are willing to die for theirs.

I wish a safe return to the very professional troops from more than 20 countries still on the ground. Once again they are victims of incompetent politicians.

But it 20 years, was it not always obvious, that a young Afghani, that just got in the Army because it was only available well paid job would not be willing to die for some very local nebulous cause? To defeat a group that embodies the cultural heritage that prevailed in the country for the last few centuries?

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#70

Post by pishpash »

CapricornNoble wrote: post #46
yalogin wrote: post #32

What a failure of the US armed forces here. 20 damn years staying in the country with the only 2 goal - to help Afghans build an army and help defend themselves and to eradicate the Taliban. They failed miserably in both. Trillions spent and many lost lives. Why would we ever pour money into such a terrible, incompetent system? Of course, the cycle keeps repeating itself and we keep growing the military.

>>>Why would we ever pour money into such a terrible, incompetent system? Not that the US DoD is in any way a model of efficiency, but I suspect you are vastly underestimating the difficulty of the problem set. Over the past 200 years, the British, Soviet, and American empires have all failed to pacify Afghanistan. Probably the Mongols and Alexander the Great struggled too, I need to dig into the history of those cam…

Certainly, Afghanistan was for the containment of China/Russia and Iraq was for the containment of Iran/Russia. Still, were those really successes?
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