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I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

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Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#61

Post by wolverine876 »

CivBase wrote: post #52

Most people aren't doctors, epidemiologists, or scientists of any sort. Nobody can be experts at everything, so we rely on expert authorities to break things down for us. Since we're not experts ourselves, we cannot independently verify what the experts are saying, which means our relationship with them is built on trust. But what happens when a nation becomes so fiercely divided along political lines that we collect…

We don't like talking politics here on HN, but we can't hide from the truth: It's not an issue of respect or political polarization. It's the right-wing political movement which has an extreme ideology of reactionaryism. No matter what the issue or situation, they will be against it.

Talking more respectfully to them won't change it. It's not possible to talk to them, because most public communication is filtered through reactionary propaganda. For example, President Biden is generally respectful, but cannot reach them.

If we don't deal with this movement now, it will continue to grow stronger. Clearly there are no limits to it: Vaccination and masks to prevent a pandemic disease, attempts to overturn an election and seize power, etc.

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#62

Post by tablespoon »

onychomys wrote: post #36
Alupis wrote: post #26

Folks - if someone you know is not vaccinated at this point in time (in the US) - it's entirely on them if they get sick. And guess what - they already know this, made that decision, and nothing you rant and rave about is going to change it. Quit trying to drum up some mandatory vaccine rhetoric - or villianize these people. Just leave them alone and go about your life in whatever way you think is appropriate for you…

A gentle reminder that no children under 12 have been vaccinated yet, and so the behavior of unvaccinated adults affects more people than you're talking about here.

And the immunocompromised, who can be vaccinated AND remain vulnerable afterwards.

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#63

Post by csw-001 »

Alupis wrote: post #57
csw-001 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of thoughts here. (1) There are a significant number of people relying on us reaching herd immunity because they either can't get the vaccine, or if they can get it they might not be fully protected by it. For that population, getting everyone vaccinated IS important and worth attempting. (2) More importantly, a spike in hospitalizations could threaten the healthcare system as a whole if we run out of ICU be…

We're spent trillions already, and seem to be on course for a few more. At some point, the cost and devastation to the economy outweighs the costs of the pandemic. It's dark and brutal - but that's how high level policy has to be formed, ie. it's an unreasonable goal to prevent 100% of illnesses and death. > (1) There are a significant number of people relying on us reaching herd immunity Herd Immunity can be reached…

Good point on herd immunity. Also good point on the devastation to the economy and costs of pandemic. It's that "dark and brutal" logic that leads me to argue mandatory vaccination should be on the table as an option to bring down human and economic costs.

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#64

Post by yread »

I thought there would be more stuff that the patients actually sad, in the end it was just

intubation kills patients

they wish for chest compressions without intubation in the event of a respiratory arrest (what?)

they refuse to wear “muzzles” when grocery shopping

they didn’t get vaccinated because they “just didn’t get around to it”

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#65

Post by stevenalowe »

poslathian wrote: post #60
umvi wrote: post #48

Once upon a time there was town called Statisticsville with a population of 1000 people. Every year around 8 people die. Sometimes 7, sometimes 9. One year, a new infectious disease came along and killed 2 additional people (both elderly). The population nearly had a civil war over these additional 2 deaths because some people thought the additional 2 deaths could have been prevented with better enforced public healt…

Not sure why downvoted. Do people think this comment indicates you are an antivaxxer? Which part of the comment suggests that?

perhaps the part where the virus death rate is off by a factor of 10

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#66

Post by dave333 »

codyswann wrote: post #58
mindcrime wrote: post #21

I really don't understand the anti-vaxxers. I mean, OK, when the vaccine first came out, I could understand a small measure of hesitancy. Hell, I even said something to the effect of "I don't necessarily want to be first in line." But at this point, the vaccines have been given to, what, billions of people? And the number of people who have suffered severe ramifications that can be attributed to a vaccine rounds to z…

Anti-vaxxers' rallying cry is "WE DON'T KNOW THE LONG TERM EFFECTS YET!" Which means, I guess they'll get the shot in 50 years?

the short term effect is without the vaccine you can be dead in three weeks so there's no logic behind what they are saying, just political will.

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#67

Post by mickotron »

My country (Australia) has botched their rollout.

I wanted to get vaccinated, registered my "interest" to get vaccinated months ago, then waited for the invitation to book an appointment, booked my first, then second appointment.

This process took months, amid shortages in Pfizer, waiting times of more than an hour on the phone to book appointments, their online booking system simply not working during high demand.

What I'm saying is, as a person highly motivated to get vaccinated, it wasn't easy.

Our gov and officials tell us how lazy we are to not be vaccinated, but I can understand why a lot of people aren't. In some cases it is made too hard to jump through all the hoops.

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#68

Post by vaxthroaway »

throwaway3neu94 wrote: post #56
chrismcb wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, if you are young, what are the reasons to get vaccinated?

* Not infecting others who are more at risk or cannot get the vaccine (allergies, age, availability) or are higher risk than you (age, preconditions), including anti-vaxxers (I would be devastated if a beloved family members died even if they rejected the vaccine ). * Doing your part to wipe Covid out so we get back to normal (do you have a better plan?) * Wiping Covid out so we don't get a worse strain like the delt…

Rebuttal:

* This vaccine does not stop the spread of COVID - https://news.yahoo.com/vacation-outbreaks-among-vaccinated-p... (ignore the headline and read the stats.)

* Hypothetical, as there is zero evidence that any government anywhere in the world ever intends to return to normal no matter the compliance rate.

* Not possible. We have never successfully eradicated a virus (smallpox still exists in the world.)

* This would require this to be the first virus in history that evolves to be more dangerous rather than less over time.

* There's no peer-reviewed evidence that "long covid" exists.

* Sure, this one's a gimme.

* What about the medical experts who aren't recommending it? Of course, you're not allowed to mention that they exist on any social media platform or news media, so you probably don't know about them.

* Coercion

* Coercion

* The demonstrated risk for young healthy people that's less than being killed by a lightning strike or a vending machine?

* Coercion

* Coercion

* Anecdotal evidence

So, the uptake to me is that the answer is, in most circumstances, coercion by government power or a 'promise' that things will return to normal.

If this vaccine was actually effective, then maybe. But it isn't. Coercion is all anyone has. And that isn't enough.

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#69

Post by BrandoElFollito »

Alupis wrote: post #26

Folks - if someone you know is not vaccinated at this point in time (in the US) - it's entirely on them if they get sick. And guess what - they already know this, made that decision, and nothing you rant and rave about is going to change it. Quit trying to drum up some mandatory vaccine rhetoric - or villianize these people. Just leave them alone and go about your life in whatever way you think is appropriate for you…

You may want to have av word with my wife who is under strong immunodepressants and did not react to the vaccine. Three times. Two kind of vaccines.

The healthy unvaccinated dickheads idiots, because they are idiots but do not realize it, should simply be forced to get a vaccine or be put aside from society.

And because they are idiots and won't understand it anyway, do not spend to much resources trying to explain that.

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#70

Post by CivBase »

wolverine876 wrote: post #61
CivBase wrote: post #52

Most people aren't doctors, epidemiologists, or scientists of any sort. Nobody can be experts at everything, so we rely on expert authorities to break things down for us. Since we're not experts ourselves, we cannot independently verify what the experts are saying, which means our relationship with them is built on trust. But what happens when a nation becomes so fiercely divided along political lines that we collect…

We don't like talking politics here on HN, but we can't hide from the truth: It's not an issue of respect or political polarization. It's the right-wing political movement which has an extreme ideology of reactionaryism. No matter what the issue or situation, they will be against it. Talking more respectfully to them won't change it. It's not possible to talk to them, because most public communication is filtered thr…

I can't disagree more.

Doesn't it feel a little too convenient to label your opposition as "beyond saving"? And how do you propose we "deal with this movement now" if you've convinced yourself they can't be reasoned with? I know it's not true from first hand experience. I've convinced a dozen people with hard-right political ideologies to get the vaccine. It hasn't always worked, but I've had much more success than not.

Respect is difficult, but it works. And you'll never be able to justifiably expect others to respect you if you don't respect them first. Be the change you want to see.

Also, one person being respectful is not enough to change things at scale - especially someone in as naturally divisive a position as POTUS.

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