Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work • Hacker News Board

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#61

Post by Frost1x » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 3:09 PM UTC

notpachet wrote: post #33

sokoloff wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To whom would Apple sell their new spaceship if remote working in tech became pervasive? Who would buy Google’s campus? I’m pro-remote work, but if all of tech does it, that seriously dents tech-style real estate.

Hey, Amazon's always on the lookout for new fulfillment center real estate!

This just in, "Dear fulfillment center staff, you now have access to free coffee, a gym, and a great cafeteria but will still need to urinate in bottles to meet expectations. If you clock in early you can grab a free coffee! Just think of it as a beautiful environment for you to slave away in, your industry peers will be envious of all the perks you have access to but can never enjoy." --Amazon Logistics Management

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#62

Post by ttul » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

I say: where is the data? I have not seen data suggesting that fully remote teams are more or less productive than in-office teams. How are big company executives making this enormous decision in a rational manner?

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#63

Post by Mikeb85 » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

eunos wrote: post #41

spenczar5 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The weird thing is that residential prices have gone way up, even in cities. It’s been a great year for the value of Seattle homes ( https://www.seattlepi.com/realestate/article/seattle-2021-ho... ). So I don’t think this has to do with executives protecting home values. It might be about the business protecting the value of office buildings, though - if they own them, and don’t rent, anyway.

Isn't that caused by 0 interest rate mostly?

0 interest rate as well as all the stimulus money flowing through the economy. People are looking for places to put their money to not lose out to inflation and most investments reached all time highs already. So investors are looking for pretty much anything to buy - look at crypto (even shitcoins gained tons of value), real estate around the world, etc... in addition to equity markets.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#64

Post by bradleyjg » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #52

bradleyjg wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly don’t have all the answers, but a few observations: 1) Starting remote seems tougher than going remote. It’s a bit rough on families but maybe an extended in person onboarding trip is a good compromise. 2) Face to face connections have to be renewed every once in a while. Co-location trips are going to become a cost of being remote, I think. 3) Some people come across badly over video. Not sure if there’s…

I started a job remotely. A lot of the problems with remote onboarding to me were because of broken things that conversations could quickly fix, making fixing it properly too onerous. For example, when I was setting up my local environment I needed a token. What token? Not specified. So I had to ask someone else and wait for a reply. It turns out I could have gotten the token myself. In a prior job, I needed at least…

That’s the kind of thing that can and should be fixed by every person that gets onboarded updating the onboarding docs.

The thing I find more problematic with remote onboarding followed by remote work is that there’s no relationship building. There needs to be some play in the joints for a team to work. Getting to know teammates as real people, and not just an image on a screen and some IM messages, makes it more likely you will give them the benefit of the doubt.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#65

Post by UnpossibleJim » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 3:15 PM UTC

todd3834 wrote: post #10

I’ve been part of a lot of these conversations and it is important to note that there is a significant percentage of employees that want to go back to the office. The trick is how to please everyone. It is easy to say, let those who want to come back come and those who don’t stay home. However those that want to go back say it is because they want to be surrounded by their coworkers. Having gone back to the office vo…

What I think you've hit on brilliantly here, that a lot of companies seem to be having trouble implementing, is there is no one size fits all policy.

This is an incredibly difficult thing for management to implement and write policy for. Now, if you look at my previous posts, I'm known to have made fun of a bloated middle management structure cough once or twice, but in this very specific case, it might actually be able to be used to the benefit of the employees. Using that middle management to reach out, communicate and facilitate the needs and wants while the infrastructure is in place can make a truly hybrid structure work for everyone and review based on work performed, not time in office (like it should be, anyway - though generally is).

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#66

Post by bmat » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

If you work at one of these companies and are frustrated by the decision to return to the office, I encourage you to seriously consider leaving to pursue a remote-first career. Not only to send a message, but also because there are many great remote opportunities out there right now.

Ironically I had this battle with Google pre-COVID back in 2019. I was worn down by my commute and itching for a change of environment, but I liked my team and my project. I figured I’d push for full remote since the sell seemed obvious: either I stop working for you and you get zero value from me, or you let me work remotely and you continue to get value from me (more value, I argued). I put forth a list of concessions to address their concerns (I’ll commit to stable online hours, I’ll create a virtual desk in the form of an always-on voice or video call, I’ll forfeit remote if my performance rating is anything below “exceeds expectations”). After weeks of back and forth meetings, the final response was: we can’t give you full remote because then everyone will want it. How about 3 days in 2 days out?

I left a month later, did some traveling, then started working as a remote freelancer. Despite no free food, no benefits, no in-office massages, I have zero regrets. It’s been one of the best decisions I’ve ever made for my overall well-being. And most recently I took a full-time position at a fully remote company (as in no offices at all) with better comp and benefits than what I had at Google.

The more we actually leave to pursue remote, the more these opportunities will arise.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#67

Post by trunnell » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

todd3834 wrote: post #10

I’ve been part of a lot of these conversations and it is important to note that there is a significant percentage of employees that want to go back to the office. The trick is how to please everyone. It is easy to say, let those who want to come back come and those who don’t stay home. However those that want to go back say it is because they want to be surrounded by their coworkers. Having gone back to the office vo…

There's wisdom in this comment. But note that the dynamics of the conversation are a function of company culture. "Make execs comfortable" is a reflection of culture.

Another path is to simply hold leaders accountable for output rather than working style. After all, is it acceptable for a team to under-deliver if they worked hard & worked in the office? Usually not. Working in the office is not sufficient to produce the right output.

If you hold leaders accountable for output, you can then let them decide how their team will work. It's way easier to solve this problem in a discussion among 5 team members than in a written policy for 500 or 5000.

One last tip: collaborating is much easier when a team is 100% remote or 100% in the office, but split is much harder. When everyone is remote all communication must be available remotely (and typically written). When everyone is in the office, it's easy to swivel the chairs around for a quick impromptu chat. But impromptu chats leave out the people who aren't there - that's why half local and half remote is harder.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#68

Post by bobmaxup » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 3:17 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #44

noir_lord wrote: post #35

Company I work for is remote-only and has been for years. Since they already had that in place the pandemic didn't really hit them from an organisational point of view. The reason I was so interested in the job (other than the fact the work is interesting) was because they where remote-only before pandemic - so there was no risk of "right, it's over, everyone back in the building". I'm not sure what someone would hav…

> with everything setup how you want is just a no-brainer. I had an earlier comment on how those against WFH might change their mind if they had a good chair. It might work in reverse too. The office might be far less annoying to people if they had a budget for equipment or at least got high quality equipment.

Private offices might be another worthwhile incentive

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#69

Post by lukevp » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 3:19 PM UTC

bmat wrote: post #66

If you work at one of these companies and are frustrated by the decision to return to the office, I encourage you to seriously consider leaving to pursue a remote-first career. Not only to send a message, but also because there are many great remote opportunities out there right now. Ironically I had this battle with Google pre-COVID back in 2019. I was worn down by my commute and itching for a change of environment,…

DM me if your company is hiring! I’m happy where I’m at (I left my previous workplace for the same reasons as you mentioned, and now work fully-remotely), but I’m always open to new opportunities. My current company is not fully-remote; my team is, but others are hybrid.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#70

Post by cratermoon » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 3:20 PM UTC

todd3834 wrote: post #10

I’ve been part of a lot of these conversations and it is important to note that there is a significant percentage of employees that want to go back to the office. The trick is how to please everyone. It is easy to say, let those who want to come back come and those who don’t stay home. However those that want to go back say it is because they want to be surrounded by their coworkers. Having gone back to the office vo…

I'd happily go back to working in the office. If I had an actual office, not a 4-foot wide folding table that's part of a line of eight of them in 12 rows in a room the size of a basketball court.

I haven't had an "office" to go to work in since 2000. I've shared spaces with anywhere from three to all of my co-workers. "Recent research shows that such offices result in 73 per cent less face-to-face interaction, and a 67 per cent increase in email interaction" https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/325959