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As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

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Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#61

Post by cageface »

dpatru wrote: post #56
mkn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find that to be the most plausible mechanism for the proliferation of laws at all. More likely, it's an emergent property of the legal system in a democratic context that can probably be explained in terms of game theory. At any legislative junction, there's a cost or benefit associated with enacting or not enacting a law. Take the arrowhead removal example from the article. You're a lawmaker and you're faced…

In a free society, everything is permissible unless it is forbidden. In a non-free society, everything is forbidden unless it is permitted. When the laws are so numerous and complicated that the ordinary person does not know what is forbidden, a free society feels and functions like an un-free society. A society under law means that people cannot be prosecuted by the whim of the authority, but only according to objec…

Can you think of any examples of real-world "free" societies like the ones you describe? I can't.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#62

Post by dpatru »

kstenerud wrote: post #52
starwed wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found the article weird in that respect. None of these laws seem particularly odious -- the ones that seem unjust could have been avoided by prosecuters using their discretion. Also, I'm amused by an article about injustices in the criminal system where everyone pictured is a well-off white man.

> Also, I'm amused by an article about injustices in the criminal system where everyone pictured is a well-off white man. That is by design, since the stereotype for "middle class" is the well-off white man, and this article is attempting to motivate the middle class. Revolutions only happen when a critical mass of the middle class switches sides.

You're implying that the Wall Street Journal, the businessman's newspaper, is trying to foment revolution. Things must be bad indeed.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#63

Post by dpatru »

kingkawn wrote: post #55

It is cute to point out the guys getting busted for searching for arrowheads, but upwards of 85% of the people in prison in the US are black or hispanic. I'd guess that an even larger percentage are poor. This process is not without a target.

A criminal defense lawyer once told me that he was convinced that certain police officers had a personal mission to make sure that every black boy in certain neighborhoods has a criminal record by the time he is an adult.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#64

Post by r00fus »

cageface wrote: post #61
dpatru wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a free society, everything is permissible unless it is forbidden. In a non-free society, everything is forbidden unless it is permitted. When the laws are so numerous and complicated that the ordinary person does not know what is forbidden, a free society feels and functions like an un-free society. A society under law means that people cannot be prosecuted by the whim of the authority, but only according to objec…

Can you think of any examples of real-world "free" societies like the ones you describe? I can't.

Somalia?

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#66

Post by daemin »

spc476 wrote: post #49
mkn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find that to be the most plausible mechanism for the proliferation of laws at all. More likely, it's an emergent property of the legal system in a democratic context that can probably be explained in terms of game theory. At any legislative junction, there's a cost or benefit associated with enacting or not enacting a law. Take the arrowhead removal example from the article. You're a lawmaker and you're faced…

What if all laws (except for the Constitution) automatically sunsets after a period of time, say, 20 years? The job of the legislation is to create laws, by definition. So is it any wonder we end up with an accumulation of laws, some outdated? With an automatic sunset of all laws, this keeps the legislation busy without burdening us with an accumulation of outdated laws. If it's really important, let the law be renew…

What would be good would be to have new laws sunset over a shorter period of time, say 5 years, and then they would renew for a longer period of time each time they were renewed.

Kind of like a generational garbage collector.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#67

Post by daemin »

dpatru wrote: post #60
padobson wrote: post #19

'Current law provides a range of options to protect society, he says. "It would be horrible if they started repealing laws and taking those options away."' That's the most disturbing line in the piece to me. Laws used to frustrate, oppress, or even enslave a citizenry are always written under the guise of offering 'options for protection'. Why do we need to wiretap private citizens? To keep private citizens safe of c…

> 'Current law provides a range of options to protect society, he says. "It would be horrible if they started repealing laws and taking those options away."' This quote also disturbed me, but for a slightly different reason: The prosecutor who is speaking is implying that the large number of laws give him a lot of options, i.e., he is (almost) free to persecute on whim. If there were fewer laws, he would be more cons…

This old saying comes to mind:

  If you give me six lines written by the most honest man, 
  I will find something in them to hang him.
  -- Cardinal de Richelieu

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#68

Post by noonespecial »

What really disappoints me is that we apparently have people who have been trusted with enormous power by the citizenry (the prosecutors) who seem wholly incapable of taking a step back and asking themselves, "is this discretionary action I'm about to take to prosecute these people going to make the world better or worse?" and then acting reasonably.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#69

Post by joe_the_user »

mkn wrote: post #28
ctdonath wrote: post #21

"Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against - then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only p…

I don't find that to be the most plausible mechanism for the proliferation of laws at all. More likely, it's an emergent property of the legal system in a democratic context that can probably be explained in terms of game theory. At any legislative junction, there's a cost or benefit associated with enacting or not enacting a law. Take the arrowhead removal example from the article. You're a lawmaker and you're faced…

I think you're missing a crucial "way things work" here...

Yes, a lot of these things happen through more-or-less the path of least resistance... Sure. But that doesn't mean there's a certain consciousness, a certain awareness among those who allow, who occasionally guide things this way.

I'm way, way on the other of the spectrum from Rand and have no use for her politics in general.

But this particular quote is a fine description for bureaucrats of all pin-stripes, all cardigans and all suits. No one would ever say this but they feel the awareness that proliferating laws give them power against nearly everyone when nearly everyone breaks the laws. And that power, of course, can used against whoever criticizes, annoys or stands against them.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#70

Post by Eliezer »

mkn wrote: post #28
ctdonath wrote: post #21

"Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against - then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only p…

I don't find that to be the most plausible mechanism for the proliferation of laws at all. More likely, it's an emergent property of the legal system in a democratic context that can probably be explained in terms of game theory. At any legislative junction, there's a cost or benefit associated with enacting or not enacting a law. Take the arrowhead removal example from the article. You're a lawmaker and you're faced…

I think it's a perfectly apposite quote. No, the proliferation of laws is not there as the result of an evil conspiracy to make everyone guilty of something. But sometimes you can clearly illustrate harmful side effects in fiction by postulating evil conspiracies that do things for the sake of the harmful side effects.

Nobody knows the law anymore. Everyone is guilty of something. If the police want to arrest you, they can find some charge or another. Who has power in a world like that? Why, the person who decides whether or not to prosecute you for a law that thousands or millions of other people are breaking.

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