Live data from Hacker News

10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

vg.no

61–70 of 138 posts

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#61

Ten years on, and it's chilling to consider how much more widespread Brevik's ideology has become worldwide. Ethnonationalism has elbowed its way to a seat at the table, demanding "toleration" for itself that it would never reciprocate for pluralism.

Do I misunderstand these terms, or hasn't ethnonationalism been the norm historically and pluralism quite rare?

I think we could make a distinction between 'ethnocentrism' as identification with culture and being 'historically normative' at least somewhat, and 'ethnonationalism' which is the addition of the nation state, where it can possibly get more extremist under an operationally effective entity and codified/organized ideology aka Nazism. That's just my view.

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#62

Ten years on, and it's chilling to consider how much more widespread Brevik's ideology has become worldwide. Ethnonationalism has elbowed its way to a seat at the table, demanding "toleration" for itself that it would never reciprocate for pluralism.

Do I misunderstand these terms, or hasn't ethnonationalism been the norm historically and pluralism quite rare?

Recent history, 19th and 20th century, yes. Older than that, no. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't French a minority language in France until the government decided to pursue a policy of francisation?

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#63
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hindu Nationalism now rules over India and they aren't going anywhere. Then why are Hindus being threatened and murdered every day for being Hindus? How can Hindu monks be casually lynched in the presence of police personnel?[1] Why were those who voted for the BJP during the Bengal elections forced to flee their homes?[2] And why are the hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits who were systematically driven out…

Typical logical fallacy -- crimes and atrocities can be committed against Hindus and Hindutva can remain a noxious force in the subcontinent.

Hindutva emerged because Hindus saw that no one else was going to defend their interests. Even if you go back in time, you see that the dearly departed father of the nation MK Gandhi did so much to fight for Muslims and Muslim interests, like supporting the restoration of the Caliphate[1], but didn't lift a finger when it was Hindu interests at stake.

Do people who whine about Hindus and Hindu nationalism know what kind of stuff happened to Hindus during and before the partition of the country? And what the so-called leaders of the people did in response?[2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khilafat_Movement

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Action_Day

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#64
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hindu nationalism is pretty scary stuff and is relatively under reported in the western world. The body count it's racked up so far is genuinely shocking. One riot[0]in 2002 (some argue it was a pogrom) killed at least 1,000 people. Some people accuse the current prime minister of either initiating it or at least ordering the police to do nothing, since he was the chief minister of the area at the time. I only know a…

> Hindu nationalism is pretty scary stuff and is relatively under reported in the western world. Was the Godhra train arson[1] where 100+ Hindu pilgrims including women and children were deliberately set afire by a Muslim mob ever covered by the Western press? This is what triggered the riots. > killed at least 1,000 people. So no Hindus were killed in the riots? Only Muslims? > Some people accuse the current prime m…

It’s unclear to me whether you’re defending the massacre or what your argument is. It was set off by an arson. Ok. Are you implying that the reaction was justified?

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#65
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I see the "mental gymnastics" here. Isn't it a usually accepted thing that young children have no clue? It makes "sense" (at least in the scope of Breivik's craziness) to consider that these kids were "victims" brought there by their parents or something. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "mental gymnastics". I think this expression usually applies when 2 contradicting /paradoxical statements are made…

He was attacking a youth camp and shot many young teens(I didn’t read every slide but one example I saw was a 14 YO girl hit four times) so I don’t see a difference. I guess I’m just shocked at seeing a weird attempt at “ethics” from someone who would do something like that.

Breivik likely saw himself as a very ethical and virtuous individuals. His reasoning there doesn't surprise me.

He and some other mass killers may even feel as though they have a stronger personal code of ethics than most people. Their ethical philosophies and stances are just unfathomably twisted and corrupted, not unlike how cancer cells behave as if they're functioning rightfully.

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#66

Ten years on, and it's chilling to consider how much more widespread Brevik's ideology has become worldwide. Ethnonationalism has elbowed its way to a seat at the table, demanding "toleration" for itself that it would never reciprocate for pluralism.

It's the paradox of tolerance in action. Tolerate intolerant ideals and there will be a sudden jerk to intolerance.

Unfortunately the paradox of tolerance is trivially abused. If someone concludes that Islam is intolerant, that person feels that the PoT gives them moral license to behave in tolerantly toward Muslims. I think we also see this in American culture war where the definition of “intolerance” is contorted such that it matches one’s ideological opponents. Perhaps we need a firmer test for what constitutes tolerance or intolerance, although even then the semantic contortionists would probably just redefine the terms that constitute the test.

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#67
I don't understand why they mention the terrorist so much in this in memorial, also photos of him in combat gear. The majority of comments here are about him and his deeds; this is exactly the kind of thing these people want, to be remembered. Discussion about motives, political background are warranted but these people really should not be remembered by name or face.

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#68

Ten years on, and it's chilling to consider how much more widespread Brevik's ideology has become worldwide. Ethnonationalism has elbowed its way to a seat at the table, demanding "toleration" for itself that it would never reciprocate for pluralism.

It's the paradox of tolerance in action. Tolerate intolerant ideals and there will be a sudden jerk to intolerance.

What's left is to determine who is tolerant and who isn't.

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#69

Weapons purchased completely legally.

Just state your point explicitly?

As a thought experiment, do you think there would be so many casualities if this island was located in Texas, USA where socialists/labor party is also not very popular?

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#70

Ten years on, and it's chilling to consider how much more widespread Brevik's ideology has become worldwide. Ethnonationalism has elbowed its way to a seat at the table, demanding "toleration" for itself that it would never reciprocate for pluralism.

Do I misunderstand these terms, or hasn't ethnonationalism been the norm historically and pluralism quite rare?

No, the existence of ethnicities is old but the concept of tying them to national borders is very young (modern era, and mostly 19th century and beyond) and the specific interpretation of ethonationalism here (ethno exclusionism within a set of borders) is even younger.

I have to work right now so can't work through all the examples listed by another poster below, but will try to come to this thread later. But if you look at e.g. historical Europe or Rome you will rarely find borders defined by ethnicity, and you will rarely even find people defining themselves by a singular ethnicity. Look at the e.g. Franks, the Germanic political entity that ended up defining modern France (and Holland and Germany and Belgium, etc.) A Germanic-speaking tribe that took over a Celtic (Gaulic) and Latin speaking territory, went to war with other "Germans", switched to speaking Latin in some places, but not all, and on the territory where they once ruled you now have a shattered mirror of dozens of ethnicities ("German", "Dutch", "Walloon", "French", "Alsatian", etc) in a nested fractal pattern depending on what lense you use, none of which correspond to any exact political border and which are fluid and changing from decade to decade.

My take: Ethnicity exists, is fluid, etc. Ethnonationalism is a tool, an ideological tool, mobilizing ethnicity for its own ends, using a specifically modern era mechanism ("nations", which are only ~200-300 years old) for the purposes of whoever is wielding it. E.g. the ambitions of an e.g. Milosevic type personality.

My ancestors are from both Alsace and Germany, so I take an interest in this topic.

Post reply on HN