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Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

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Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#61
post #59
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also depends on train stations being accidentally close to where you depart/arrive. Most people don't live closer to a large train station then to an airport, I'd think.

Large train stations are far more common than large airports in Europe, so you got this the wrong way around.

How many of these train stations have been built after 1950? And what defines "large" in both cases?

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#62

I was professionally close with an engineer who used to work on a (rapidly dwindling headcount) team responsible for the programs and related QA for mission critical flight safety systems. Think one of the big manufacturers. The eng dealt with: The standard was scripts with mutable variables such as `G == , B == , C == , redefine G as something else later` responsible for the processes around pretty critical airplane…

Most of your point is well made, but electric engines are just as tied to physics, unless I'm missing something? Doesn't mean quality of the control software is still not concerning.

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect it was in jest, but the reason why is that he is obviously immensely passionated about aviation and logistics. He makes really, really good videos about both, I'd recommend his channel to anyone. PS, I had to vouch for your comment to reply, as it was dead. Had a look through your profile… I think there's often a lot of value in asking simple questions, but a lot of your comment history is just extremely lo…

It was indeed in jest! Wendover's videos have been consistently increasing in quality over the years. The amount of research that goes into each one is phenomenal. So much so that lately if I ever come across any aviation topic on the internet, there's already a Wendover video about it. :)

I had a Gell-Mann amnesia moment when their video about electric car charge infrastructure made some major errors about electrical engineering. But their videos do generally feel exceptionally well researched, especially by YouTube standards.

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#64
post #24

They talk about regional flight. Does anyone have any sign that battery-powered planes carrying a hundred people will cross the Atlantic, Pacific, or the U.S.? The physics in Tom Murphy's textbook https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2021/03/textbook-debut suggests it's impossible. I've talked to people at electric plane companies who have offered no hope. I originally thought since we engineered from the Wright brothers to 74…

As others have mentioned, the energy density is a big deal because those planes' fuel accounts for A LOT of their take-off weight. To both illustrate this and point out another potential problem: when a fully fueled heavy, long-haul / high-capacity airliner needs to make an emergency landing shortly after take-off, one of the first things they do is start dumping fuel to reduce the weight (make it more maneuverable) and reduce the fire risk of a crash. Not sure what a comparable procedure for batteries might look like.

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LNA, an aviation industry newsletter, recently came to a very different conclusion [1]. The biggest difference to Wendover Productions's numbers is a hugely higher estimate in the cost of replacing the battery every 5-10 years due to battery degradation. [1] https://leehamnews.com/2021/07/01/the-true-cost-of-electric-...

Thank you for bringing up this other conclusion. I still side with Wendover overall. Even if batteries have to be replaced that often now, the technology will continue to improve, becoming both cheaper and more reliable. Computers used to be the size of rooms and break due to literal insects in them.

And it really depends on the chemistry. Some chemistries can last 10,000-100,000 cycles and so the battery may never need to be replaced in the life of the airframe. One thing short haul electric aircraft have going for them is the regulatory requirement to have a 45 minute reserve. That essentially means that the battery will never be cycled to anywhere close to 0% but probably maintain at least 20% almost all the time. Combined with most routes probably using just 80% of the max charge, and the batteries could last an extremely long time.

Also battery prices continue to fall. Some industry analysts still use battery cost estimates from five or 10 years ago for something that will happen in 30 years (battery replacement).

Edit: looks like they’re using extremely high costs for battery replacement, comparable to costs about a decade ago and about 2-4 times current costs for mass produced batteries, let alone 5-20 years from now: “ The cost of replacing such a battery can be projected to reach around $400 to $500 per kWh mid-decade.”

Compare this to estimates/goals by the Department of Energy that say $60-80/kWh is feasible by 2030: https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2020/12/22/doe-offers-an-energy-...

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#66

I was professionally close with an engineer who used to work on a (rapidly dwindling headcount) team responsible for the programs and related QA for mission critical flight safety systems. Think one of the big manufacturers. The eng dealt with: The standard was scripts with mutable variables such as `G == , B == , C == , redefine G as something else later` responsible for the processes around pretty critical airplane…

I would be shocked if modern turbofan engines don't have at least as much software in them as electric engines. Maybe more.

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#67

I was professionally close with an engineer who used to work on a (rapidly dwindling headcount) team responsible for the programs and related QA for mission critical flight safety systems. Think one of the big manufacturers. The eng dealt with: The standard was scripts with mutable variables such as `G == , B == , C == , redefine G as something else later` responsible for the processes around pretty critical airplane…

Most of your point is well made, but electric engines are just as tied to physics, unless I'm missing something? Doesn't mean quality of the control software is still not concerning.

I think what they're trying to say is that the types of electric motors used in vehicles (like switched reluctance motors[1]) typically require a computerized controller that someone has to program, and therefore has an additional point of failure from a software standpoint.

However, I'm pretty sure any modern internal combustion engine will have a highly advanced ECU computer too, so this is sort of a non-issue (though I'll admit I don't know much about aircraft engines specifically).

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_reluctance_motor

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean in Europe all capitals are within 100s/1000s of km from each others... and inner country travel is definitely within the 100km range. This has a huge potential, but I don't know if it will improve overtime, since energy density of Li-ion is a hard limit.

For me only if we figure out how to shorten airport time. Otherwise train in europe is easier - and usually located directly downtown or close instead of an hour in a car with traffic.

If someone gets a bomb on a train we'll figure out how to lengthen train station time...

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean in Europe all capitals are within 100s/1000s of km from each others... and inner country travel is definitely within the 100km range. This has a huge potential, but I don't know if it will improve overtime, since energy density of Li-ion is a hard limit.

For me only if we figure out how to shorten airport time. Otherwise train in europe is easier - and usually located directly downtown or close instead of an hour in a car with traffic.

Small aircraft can operate from regional airport which are much, much faster to board and disembark from then the large airports that behemoths have to use. I really don’t understand all the hate for a smaller electric aircraft. There are tons of advantages, and the difference in pilot labor costs are practically trivial. (I think a big driver for larger aircraft had been reducing number of engines per passenger as jet engines are expensive to maintain and the larger ones are also more efficient, but this isn’t really applicable to electric motors.)

Re: Electric aircraft set to take flight by 2026 under new agreements

#70
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Won't batteries be a problem now?

Good point. The Dreamliner has such problems in its Li-ion batteries to the point that the weight savings due to composite construction was subsequently nullified by metal retrofits to contain battery fires ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_... ). Additionally, IATA has put strict limits on Li-ion cargo due to Lithium being too reactive, so any plane with Lithium batteries must consider th…

It negated the benefits of the lighter batteries, not the benefit of the composite airframe.
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