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Building a vision of life without work (2015)

livingafi.com

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Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#61

Post by neogodless »

dayvid wrote: post #51
kevinwang wrote: post #5

This person also posted an amazing, unvarnished update recently (about 5-6 years later): https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...

That post was incredible. Really rare and refreshing to find that level of honesty on the internet nowadays (even when pseudonymous), sadly. Reflected a lot of thoughts I had about potential downsides to FIRE.

The downsides like having different visions for your life from your spouse, or discovering you have a chronic health issue were not due to FIRE. In fact, FIRE gave the author tools to decide what to do about those issues. The result may not be what the author wanted (divorce, a new relationship, seeking additional income to support that new relationship) but none of the issues were caused by FIRE.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#62

Post by bpodgursky »

giantg2 wrote: post #50

If it's difficult to envision yourself without work, then you probably put too much of your identity into your work. Maybe that's not a bad thing if you truly love your job, but for most of us that is a huge mistake. Finding passions outside of work and approaching ideas as a child would is the simplest way to phrase the solution. As a child everything is new and exciting, it's easy to entertain yourself (quite cheap…

Ah, I can do this too:

If it's easy to envision yourself without work (or a passionate constructive hobby like art or writing), you're probably not a very interesting person.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#64

Post by GavinMcG »

vessenes wrote: post #32

I find the FIRE folks very interesting. If you read the followup post at https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u... you will find out that this lifestyle isn't for everyone, or for everyone's partners. One thing I think the FIRE folks can miss is the sense of worth, improvement in personal power and confidence that comes from struggling. Struggling could be making things, building a business, lea…

I agree. The author blamed his former partner's unhappiness—in her own words, a feeling like they weren't "going anywhere," like there was no "forward progress," like there was no longer a "sense of momentum"—the author chalks all this up to a "pressure to keep up with the mythical Joneses" and to the idea that she is simply "wired to be like everyone else."

It takes him a year and a half to realize that maybe goals and purpose matter: "without my former partner, I became depressed and anxious and again struggled with one of the great questions that terrorizes us all: Purpose."

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#65

Post by [deleted] »

quietbritishjim wrote: post #36
SavantIdiot wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This follow up is way more compelling because it deals with the reality. I'm jealous of the authors communication skills and their partner's: there are some very hard statements in there about feeling worthless and falling behind because of no job. I wonder of those words were spoken calmly, or shouted through tears. Here are their discussions: https://livingafi.com/post-fire-relationship-disconnect/ TL;DR: He has to…

> [article author, to wife] ... I thought that what you wanted was to live a life of freedom, with me. We’d talked about this. > [article author's wife] Not exactly. I wanted to have kids with you and work and be like everyone else. Live a normal life. I’m tired of being weird. And I don’t want to go back to work if you aren’t. That’s weird too. You wouldn’t even be a stay-at-home-dad. You’d be nothing. > [article au…

[deleted]

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#66

Post by neogodless »

OJFord wrote: post #56
thaumasiotes wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you really find yourself reaching the end of a weekend and thinking Oh thank God I have work tomorrow, I'm so bored? The comment above you is channeling the common need to say anything, no matter what it is, in response to an attack on tradition. This is why people in Oregon hear about a proposal to make pumping your own gas legal and respond "but what if somebody doesn't know how?", as if it were difficult to k…

I realise this is a tangent, but what is 'pumping your own gas'? (And if not clear from that answer, why do people in Oregon specifically object? Not from the US.)

In the United States, most adults outside dense (or well-planned) cities own their own gas (petrol) powered vehicle. In most places, you go to a gas (petrol) station to refill the tank. In some states, it's illegal (for liability reasons) to do this refilling yourself. An attendant has to come around, collect payment, and refill the tank for you.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#67

Post by zoba »

I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup and have been on a work-hiatus for almost a year. Now, I live amongst Amish people in the country.

My biggest insight has been a mindset change. Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" This is an experiment I'm performing. A structured life feels safe and orderly - but what if living life and letting things unfold more 'organically' is better?

It is a weird/uncomfortable shift because I can't predict what is coming. As an example, turns out I really enjoy building dams. A couple months ago I would not have been able to tell you that I'd be building a dam.

I have no idea what it is that drives my own interests or affinities, but now instead of attempting to manipulate them for whatever X, Y, or Z goal... I just roll with wherever they take me. And they always seem ready to take me somewhere.

My point is: In a life without work (in my experience) stuff will come up. Follow what arises, see where it goes. It certainly feels better.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#68

Post by SavantIdiot »

someelephant wrote: post #58
SavantIdiot wrote: post #39

I'm 52 and have 2.5MM in an IRA (200k cash) and debt of just a $200k mortgage (and this is weaksauce compared to my peers who all became VPs or C*Os). And the idea of trying to live off an IRA that is currently stocks/bonds/ETFs scares the bejeebers out of me. I think it is more about the personality than the money: do you have the risk-tolerance like this guy to say "fuck it, it will all work out," or are you like m…

Sorry to hear you operate at such a high baseline anxiety. I certainly hope you've explored every avenue outside addictive medications for getting it under control. And yes, I think any American should rightfully be terrified of being bankrupted by medical bills. But the world is a big place and a lot of it is much safer than the US.

Thanks. My therapist has taught me a technique of collecting "past evidence" every time I start to spin-out, and it helps me control it, but I'm not sure I could apply it to such a big thing, yet. We're working on it. But I like his approach more than my friends who are like, "you are better off than 99% of the USA so STFU." Yes, I know that, but it doesn't address the core mental issue(s).

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#69

Post by mmcdermott »

disintegore wrote: post #17
Koshkin wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that, theoretically, “communism” is different from “socialism”, and, indeed, in a communist society one could choose not to do anything “useful” (since no one has to work for a living).

I don't believe the Leninist notion of communism incorporated the idea of "not working for a living" either, but I could be wrong.

The root difference between communism and capitalism comes down to their respective views of human nature. Communism views human as fundamentally decent but are made lower by the exploitation of those with capital and power. Capitalism, on the other hand, views human beings as lacking this decent base and presupposes that they will not produce things of mutual benefit without motivation.

The critique of communism that people will not work for a living isn't so much based on the ideas in communism itself (which devoted a lot of propaganda to the noble farmer and mechanic) but on what the net result of the policy of equal distribution would cause.

Someone who believes in capitalism necessarily believes that a communist system removes the incentive to work.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#70

Post by rpeden »

OJFord wrote: post #56
thaumasiotes wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you really find yourself reaching the end of a weekend and thinking Oh thank God I have work tomorrow, I'm so bored? The comment above you is channeling the common need to say anything, no matter what it is, in response to an attack on tradition. This is why people in Oregon hear about a proposal to make pumping your own gas legal and respond "but what if somebody doesn't know how?", as if it were difficult to k…

I realise this is a tangent, but what is 'pumping your own gas'? (And if not clear from that answer, why do people in Oregon specifically object? Not from the US.)

Pumping your item gas just means putting fuel in your vehicle yourself instead of letting an attendant do it for you. You're not allowed to do it yourself in Oregon and New Jersey (with, I believe, some exceptions to ensure people can still acquire fuel in circumstances where it's unreasonable or impossible to have an employee to do it for you.)
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