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Why My Father Hated India

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Re: Why My Father Hated India

#61

Post by dimmuborgir »

known wrote: post #42

During Indo-Pak partition in 1947 the agreement is that all Muslim majority regions should be merged with Pakistan and all Hindu majority regions should be merged with India. India betrayed by annexing Muslim majority Kashmir and Hyderabad. UNSC passed multiple resolutions since 1948 advising India, Pakistan & China to give Independence to Kashmir, Tibet & Aksai Chin. Obsession with Kashmir is burning rest of the Ind…

You're a known troll who puts baseless comments on every India related posts.

India didn't betray Kashmir. The king of Kashmir (Hari Singh) was a Hindu and wanted Kashmir to be an independent country. But Pakistan wanted Kashmir, so it funded insurgents against Kashmir. When the Kashmir king couldn't face them, he sought India's military help. India agreed on the condition that Kashmir should be annexed to India.

The UN resolution says that India should conduct a free and fair election in the entire Kashmir to know what Kashmiris want (self determination). But for that, Pakistan should surrender its Pakistan-Administered-Kashmir to India and China should surrender Aksai Chin (if it has any population).

Obsession with Kashmir is burning Pakistan more than India.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#62

Post by known »

dimmuborgir wrote: post #61
known wrote: post #42

During Indo-Pak partition in 1947 the agreement is that all Muslim majority regions should be merged with Pakistan and all Hindu majority regions should be merged with India. India betrayed by annexing Muslim majority Kashmir and Hyderabad. UNSC passed multiple resolutions since 1948 advising India, Pakistan & China to give Independence to Kashmir, Tibet & Aksai Chin. Obsession with Kashmir is burning rest of the Ind…

You're a known troll who puts baseless comments on every India related posts. India didn't betray Kashmir. The king of Kashmir (Hari Singh) was a Hindu and wanted Kashmir to be an independent country. But Pakistan wanted Kashmir, so it funded insurgents against Kashmir. When the Kashmir king couldn't face them, he sought India's military help. India agreed on the condition that Kashmir should be annexed to India. The…

You're trying to fabricate the truth. When the Kashmir king couldn't face them, he sought India's military help is not true.

Maharaja appealed to Lord Mountbatten and not to India. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Kashmir#Year_...

In the last days of 1948, a ceasefire was agreed under UN auspices, but since the plebiscite demanded by the UN was never conducted, relations between India and Pakistan soured,[32] and eventually led to two more wars over Kashmir in 1965 and 1999.

India also annexed Hyderabad state by sending insurgents to Hyderabad. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Osmanistan

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#63

Post by ido »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #60

One of the things that consistently puzzle me is how different cultures handle change. Over the past 150 years, the world has seen all kinds of terrible wars, killing hundreds of millions of people and causing all sorts of hatred and ill will. Some of these cultures get up, dust themselves off, and go on -- sometimes achieving greatness. Other cultures, sometimes with far less injustice done (if you can measure these…

    Why the difference?
I suspect that in the particular example you gave it's not really about the great-great grandfather's eviction, but rather that's just a personal thing to relate their general grudge and opposition of Israel to.

I suspect that if you were a native American living in shitty conditions in some reservation you would also have harbored much more grudge against these (now ancient) injustices than if you're a white American whose ancestor got killed by Apaches 200 years ago- it's easier to forgive & forget when you are the winner: after all your hypothetical self is now in no way affected by that 200 year-old injustice.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#64

Post by akshaykarthik »

g123g wrote: post #38

Very good and balanced article overall. The hatred of each other has become so deep rooted in both the countries and the mutual suspicion so strong that it is too late that the relationship can be changed. But we still owe it our next generation to work towards peace so that the wealth that belongs to them does not get spent in keeping up the needless hostility. We cannot let the past ruin the lives of the poorest pe…

I am Indian, and have lived in India for most of my life. I have been to nearly every state (all except Kashmir, and Oyra) and everywhere I go, it always seems like the Pakistanis' hatred is the most prevalent one. One thing I can assure you is that, despite the appearance of all of this hatred, all the Indian teens I have met have no hatred for our neighbor but rather wish the fighting would stop.

Since I moved to the United States, I have had several Pakistani friends who voice the same opinions. There is no tension between the youth of the two countries (except during the Cricket World Cup).

The problem is that a government full of conservative, short-sighted politicians in India, and a government, influenced by religion, blinded by hatred in Pakistan can not seem to work out their differences.

Even if the consensus among Indians and Pakistanis' is to stop the fighting, not much can be done until the current regime is changed ( mostly in Pakistan ).

The US's problem is that publicly, they must support Pakistan despite having no real part in the conflict between the two nations ( further increasing tensions on both sides).

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#65

Post by DanielBMarkham »

ido wrote: post #63
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #60

One of the things that consistently puzzle me is how different cultures handle change. Over the past 150 years, the world has seen all kinds of terrible wars, killing hundreds of millions of people and causing all sorts of hatred and ill will. Some of these cultures get up, dust themselves off, and go on -- sometimes achieving greatness. Other cultures, sometimes with far less injustice done (if you can measure these…

Why the difference? I suspect that in the particular example you gave it's not really about the great-great grandfather's eviction, but rather that's just a personal thing to relate their general grudge and opposition of Israel to. I suspect that if you were a native American living in shitty conditions in some reservation you would also have harbored much more grudge against these (now ancient) injustices than if yo…

Want to make sure I'm clear on this: I'm not saying that different people don't have a legitimate reason to be upset. If you're living in a former communist state in shitty conditions because the Soviets destroyed your country, sure. If you're living in poverty in some third-world country because your elected leaders like playing the "big man" in politics and killed all your family? Sure.

There are lots of great reasons to be angry about your current conditions _and_ those things that have gone on before. It just doesn't accomplish much. It creates a culture of anger, vengeance, victimhood, and nihilism.

I think the danger here is to confuse the issue and start talking about who really has a right to be upset or what kind of justice is demanded by current conditions. That's a completely different conversation -- one that must happen in all of these cases, but one which happens in a lot more productive manner when people forgive. Take a look at what happened in South Africa, for instance. Not a perfect resolution, but they are not spending the next 100 years in blood feuds either.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#67

Post by known »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #60

One of the things that consistently puzzle me is how different cultures handle change. Over the past 150 years, the world has seen all kinds of terrible wars, killing hundreds of millions of people and causing all sorts of hatred and ill will. Some of these cultures get up, dust themselves off, and go on -- sometimes achieving greatness. Other cultures, sometimes with far less injustice done (if you can measure these…

Harvard Professor Robert Putnam's study showed that the more racially diverse a society is, the lower the levels of trust. http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/t...

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#68

Post by ido »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #65
ido wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the difference? I suspect that in the particular example you gave it's not really about the great-great grandfather's eviction, but rather that's just a personal thing to relate their general grudge and opposition of Israel to. I suspect that if you were a native American living in shitty conditions in some reservation you would also have harbored much more grudge against these (now ancient) injustices than if yo…

Want to make sure I'm clear on this: I'm not saying that different people don't have a legitimate reason to be upset. If you're living in a former communist state in shitty conditions because the Soviets destroyed your country, sure. If you're living in poverty in some third-world country because your elected leaders like playing the "big man" in politics and killed all your family? Sure. There are lots of great reas…

I agree that's it a lot less productive than forgiving and forgetting (I wouldn't give South Africa as a positive example but that's a different discussion, perhaps post WW2 western Europe or post cold-war Europe), and a lot of conflicts would have probably been solved by now had it not been so easy a trap to fall into.

However, I'm not sure it's possible to evade that mentality unless you are able to lead at least a minimally comfortable life - or at the very least it become a lot harder the shittier your life gets.

On a more anecdotal level, as an Israeli I remember a great sense of optimism on both sides when I was a teenager in the early/mid 90s - the territories got autonomous rule, a peace treaty was signed with Jordan (2nd one between Israel and a neighboring country since Egypt a decade and a bit before) and it genuinely seemed as if peace is inevitable.

Then at some point stuff started getting bad really fast, each side only "retaliating" to the other sides actions and the vicious cycle continued to this day ("we're not the bad guys, we're just reacting to what the other side just did!").

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