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Why do we work so damn much?

nytimes.com

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Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#61

Post by trixie_ »

cirrus3 wrote: post #24

The article seems to answer the question right up front. > as we’ve gotten richer and built more technology, we’ve developed a machine not for ending our wants, not for fulfilling them, but for generating new ones, new needs, new desires, new forms of status competition. > You can’t solve the problem of scarcity with our current system because our current system is designed to generate endlessly the feeling of more s…

The machine is way more than superficial stuff. Our government, legal process, financial system, medical, communication networks, food production, media, on and on - are part of the machine.

Machines require maintenance. And at this point the machine is so big we can barely keep it going at 40 hours a week. Automation may save us, but it seems like we automate just enough to open up new capability that itself requires maintenance.

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#62

Post by barnaclejive »

trixie_ wrote: post #61
cirrus3 wrote: post #24

The article seems to answer the question right up front. > as we’ve gotten richer and built more technology, we’ve developed a machine not for ending our wants, not for fulfilling them, but for generating new ones, new needs, new desires, new forms of status competition. > You can’t solve the problem of scarcity with our current system because our current system is designed to generate endlessly the feeling of more s…

The machine is way more than superficial stuff. Our government, legal process, financial system, medical, communication networks, food production, media, on and on - are part of the machine. Machines require maintenance. And at this point the machine is so big we can barely keep it going at 40 hours a week. Automation may save us, but it seems like we automate just enough to open up new capability that itself require…

This is one of the few non-self-focused views I have seen posted on this thread.

So many other people are jumping to discuss the topic in terms of other people like themselves or better off.

The "machine" is very much way more than superficial stuff.

Some gears in the machine are being set aside as non-functional, but the machine is so large that it still keeps "working" without those gears, and ignores the potential net-win if we cared enough to get them back in play.

It is like paying down technical debt. Sure, you can run your system as-is and pay the bills, but ideally you'd optimize for memory and CPU and pay less in the long-run. It is a hard problem to take on as we all know given other priorities and the perceived low cost of doing nothing about it right now.

Those gears are not RAM or CPU though, they are your fellow humans, and we need to act as such. I am sickened by by some of the comments here boiling this all down to an out-of-touch algorithmic and/or privileged viewpoint.

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#63

Post by username90 »

asdswe wrote: post #17
baggy_trough wrote: post #7

"hunter-gatherer societies like the Ju/’hoansi spent only about 15 hours a week meeting their material needs despite being deeply impoverished by modern standards." I don't understand the "despite" in the above sentence. The more they would work to meet their material needs, the less impoverished they would become, no?

I guess the point is that they're content with what they have, even if it's just the bare minimum.

Most people prefer working fulltime and sleeping in a home over not working and sleeping in a tent like the hunter gatherers did. The hunter gatherers just didn't have an option to work harder and get a stable home, since the nature of hunter gathering requires you to move around.

Then as people settled down and became farmers they also gained the opportunity to improve their lives by working hard, and at that point they started working way more hours. It makes sense.

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#64

Post by hackeraccount »

cirrus3 wrote: post #13

This is mostly a rant on the style of article title and intro. The content may be interesting, but I seriously doubt it. It starts off with: > Hunter-gatherers worked 15-hour weeks. Why don’t we? Uh, well, for starters, 15 hours is apparently what it took to survive and live a comparatively successful lifestyle back then, a lifestyle that really only involved SURVIVING to see the next day. Dial that up to what it tak…

If you put a hunter/gather in my shoes they'd say I "work" about an hour a day - in the morning when I go out for a run; that's work.

The rest of the day I read bit, type on a keyboard and talk to people occasionally. For me the rest of the day is work but honestly it's only a bit stressful and has an element of fun to it. If I didn't need the money I'd probably be doing something that's equivalent to the same thing.

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#65

Post by kthejoker2 »

trixie_ wrote: post #10

Why do many millionaires and billionaires continue to work super hard? People on TV, people in power, they are set for life financially and yet they still work. It's because just like the rest of us - it's what we do. We don't know how not to work without feeling like we should be doing something 'productive'. It's more cultural than anything else.

Those people are also the CEO and breadwinner of often a surprisingly large support system behind their brand - assistants, house management, financial and business management, trustees, security, transportation, coaches, doctors, lawyers, agents, tutors, PR ... the list goes on.

Don't think they're just working for kicks and laughs. In fact, for them to unwind all of that is probably more financially treacherous than you just up and quitting your paycheck-to-paycheck job.

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#66

Post by trixie_ »

cirrus3 wrote: post #55
trixie_ wrote: post #10

Why do many millionaires and billionaires continue to work super hard? People on TV, people in power, they are set for life financially and yet they still work. It's because just like the rest of us - it's what we do. We don't know how not to work without feeling like we should be doing something 'productive'. It's more cultural than anything else.

You could not miss the point harder. You are in bubble if you think people are working harder just to feel more productive. > Just like the rest of us ? who exactly do you only include in your sense of "us"?

Americans - our society values work, money, self-sufficiency, self-sacrifice, individualism, success, entrepreneurship, etc.. more than quality of life, community, etc.. Not saying that's right or wrong, that's just how it is.

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#67

Post by Mandelmus »

cirrus3 wrote: post #58
themodelplumber wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's composed of countless consciously created and refined incentive structures So you don't suppose there's much unconsciously created and refined structure to it? We hear so much about anxiety and pressure being rampant in modern society. I just wonder why mention of these (and other, unwanted, disavowed) forces is always left out of all the design talk. It seems to me to be the perfect setup for the worst parts…

He obviously doesn't. He is leaning hard on his highly questionable algorithmic narrative and has no actual clue on how real life works for many people or any exposure to it off his keyboard. It is sad for everyone really knowing these people exist.

That escalated quickly. From disagreeing with my comment to lamenting I exist is a bit of an extreme jump, wouldn't you say?

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#68

Post by Mandelmus »

cirrus3 wrote: post #59
Mandelmus wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a collective design that's been arrived at iteratively over many generations but it's still designed insofar that it's composed of countless consciously created and refined incentive structures, cultural norms, legal constructs, and institutions that in concert further our current system.

Mandelmus blah blah blah. Stop. Think like a human capable of empathy and less like an algorithm for once. Society is not as simple as the hardest problem you have or will ever have to think about. And guess what, you would not pass that interview.

I did not mean to come across as unempathetic, on the contrary! My view is that only if you admit some level of design in our inhumane system can you even expect that we can change anything about it. If it were all automatic, doesn't that make it basically inevitable and merely 'natural'?

Re: Why do we work so damn much?

#69

Post by Mandelmus »

cirrus3 wrote: post #56
Mandelmus wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a collective design that's been arrived at iteratively over many generations but it's still designed insofar that it's composed of countless consciously created and refined incentive structures, cultural norms, legal constructs, and institutions that in concert further our current system.

Mandelmus that is a lot of meaningless words to avoid the recognition that there are systematic objectives in play to repress others. "collective design" is stupid fancy term and you will look dumb saying that in person to anyone in real life.

I'm not trying to avoid that recognition at all! But somebody put those systemic objectives and incentive structures into place. The fact that societies like the ones described in the podcast have such different incentive structures is proof that it's possible for humans to collectively design a different system, rather than assuming it's all just fallen from the heavens, i.e. the inevitable outcome of immutable "human nature".
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