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Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

nature.com

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Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#61

Post by chaosite »

chrononaut wrote: post #25
beervirus wrote: post #3

We’ll still probably need periodic booster shots to deal with variants as they crop up. Still, very encouraging news if it holds up in practice.

Could someone elaborate why this particular comment is being downvoted? Or I guess in other words, is there something unique about the mRNA vaccines that make it unnecessary to require "booster shots" (if "booster shots" equate to yearly shots we are used to with the flu variants)? (I legitimately don't know and I am curious. I see the article does reference protection against a variant during a study, but it's uncle…

There's no basis to believe at this point that we'll need "booster shots" of any kind with COVID vaccination, and in fact the opposite seems to be the case, so this comment is being downvoted for spreading misinformation (amusingly, this specific comment will probably be disliked by both vaccination proponents and disease proponents :)

The reason we won't need yearly vaccinations as with the flu shots isn't a property of the mRNA vaccine, it's a property of COVID-19. The watered-down explanation is that this particular sort of virus simply doesn't mutate as much as the flu virus because it has a mechanism that prevents it. We do see variants, but they're actually quite similar so the same vaccine still works (thankfully).

It's also why we're talking about COVID "variants" and flu "strains". In this context, a different "strain" usually signifies different surface proteins, i.e., you need a different vaccine for it. I don't believe that we've seen a second COVID strain yet.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#62

Post by dawnerd »

armada651 wrote: post #39
dawnerd wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditional vaccines have also been "unreasonably effective". I'm all for mRNA going forward (I got pfizer myself) but lets not downplay just how effective the "old" tech has been against covid. It's really quite amazing how well we've been able to target it. Now if only we could get more people to accept that the vaccines are safe...

Which old tech vaccines? I haven't seen any attenuated vaccines for covid. Even the viral vector vaccines aren't exactly "old tech" and they are certainly less effective than mRNA vaccines. Just like with mRNA; viral vector vaccines haven't been seen widespread use before COVID either. And the only attempts at an attenuated vaccine have been pretty ineffective as far as I know.

They're all pretty comparable. Novavax should be getting a lot more attention since it doesn't require super cold storage and appears to be on par with the mRNA vaccines.

https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-compariso...

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#63

Post by celdon25 »

xadhominemx wrote: post #15
jaywalk wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's time for the naturally immune to be treated the same as those who've been vaccinated. There is absolutely zero scientific evidence to the contrary, and plenty of evidence to support it.

It’s hard to reliably verify previous infection and very safe and easy to get vaccinated, so what’s the point? I’m going to check your profile — 90% chance you spread antivax propaganda. Edit: yup. Every time.

Erm, I checked the profile as well. I didn't find any "propaganda" but rather reasonably argued dissent. Please don't resort to ad hominems even though it's in your name.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#64

Post by xadhominemx »

jaywalk wrote: post #51
xadhominemx wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the population of people who are willing to get a blood draw for an accurate antibody test but haven’t been vaccinated already and can’t afford moderate flu-like symptoms for a day? I’m sure a small number of people like that exist but it’s not really worth carving out complex exceptions to vaccination rules (specifying which kind of antibody tests administered by who and when, etc.) to accommodate their pref…

I've got a past positive Covid test. If that's not good enough, then why shouldn't every vaccinated person also have to go through the blood draw for an accurate antibody test to confirm their immunity? The vaccines are imperfect, just like all vaccines that have ever been created.

I already said why. Please reference my previous comments.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#65

Post by kleer001 »

wait_a_minute wrote: post #22
xadhominemx wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s hard to reliably verify previous infection and very safe and easy to get vaccinated, so what’s the point? I’m going to check your profile — 90% chance you spread antivax propaganda. Edit: yup. Every time.

It’s not your business to verify anything. It’s up to the individual to do what is best for their own situation. Focus on decisions for your own self and family.

That's not how large groups of people work to contain infectious diseases. Anarchy doesn't scale. And dealing with contagious diseases needs to scale or there will be massive preventable suffering.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#66

Post by officialjunk »

aantix wrote: post #11

What about the new Delta variant?

The vaccinated have good protection themselves from the variants, but they are also vectors for transmitting the disease still, especially not wearing masks, as the CDC advises is okay. https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2021/06/25/who-urg...

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#67

Post by reducesuffering »

mywittyname wrote: post #45
jaywalk wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's time for the naturally immune to be treated the same as those who've been vaccinated. There is absolutely zero scientific evidence to the contrary, and plenty of evidence to support it.

Vaccination is more comprehensive than natural immunity though. We've already see that the BNT vaccine offers a higher degree of protection against variants than natural immunity, or indeed other vaccines. Reinfection studies from a few months ago demonstrated that natural immunity is roughly 50% effective for people aged 65 or over. And that's the age group most likely to experience negative outcomes from covid-19,…

> Then there's the elephant in the room: so few people have been tested that it really difficult to know who has had it. Anyone who has had a cold in the past 18 months is going to claim they had covid, regardless of whether they tested positive or not.

There are many many people who have confirmed positive COVID tests. At least excuse those.

>I think it's a little irresponsible to society to give anyone an out on getting vaccinated.

I think it's irresponsible to require people who most science points to having better protection naturally, to also have to get a vaccine. From this point of view, 2 dose vaccine still have less protection than natural antibodies. Maybe we should require the vaccinated to keep getting more vaccine shots until science shows they're at par with natural antibodies, lowest hanging fruit and all...

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#68

Post by anonfornoreason »

haswell wrote: post #14
anonfornoreason wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would caution you to reconsider "given it's safe" as a statement. I think the proper statement might be closer to "the benefits can outweigh the risks, depending on the disease being treated". There are growing bodies of evidence that spike proteins travel throughout your body, don't stay isolated at the injection site, and can cause severe reactions in some people (see incidents of heart inflammation, etc). I was…

> There are growing bodies of evidence that spike proteins travel throughout your body, don't stay isolated at the injection site, and can cause severe reactions in some people Will you share citation(s) for the evidence you mention? I'm aware of the heart inflammation concerns, but as of yet, I have not seen this described as "the spike protein traveling throughout your body". > In other words, for "minor" illnesses…

As mentioned previously, we are in the early days of fully understanding the science behind these vaccines. There are many reasonable speculations that the mechanism of the CDC acknowledged cases of myocarditis and pericarditis from both the vaccine and the virus itself, are caused by spike proteins. The only way the vaccine can cause that is if those proteins aren't limited to the injection site.

It's actually extraordinarily difficult to find reasonable discussions on this topic, since it seems people want to suppress any conversation that puts a potentially negative light on covid vaccinations, which pushes any reasonable discussion into the cesspool of conspiracy theorist dialogue.

Here's a couple links:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.21.423721v1.... https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-95587/v1_stamped.... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8162819/

Not hard to search and find reasonable studies in early stages.

Once again, I have to give a disclaimer to avoid the brigade: I am optimistic about these vaccines for many things, but I would not be surprised if in 5 years we have a body of knowledge that refutes the "overall really safe" label. Still a super valuable medical tool, I mean no one would take chemo drugs if they didn't have cancer, but people take them because it's overall better than not taking them if you have a treatable version of cancer!

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#69

Post by munk-a »

YawningAngel wrote: post #53
mywittyname wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccination is more comprehensive than natural immunity though. We've already see that the BNT vaccine offers a higher degree of protection against variants than natural immunity, or indeed other vaccines. Reinfection studies from a few months ago demonstrated that natural immunity is roughly 50% effective for people aged 65 or over. And that's the age group most likely to experience negative outcomes from covid-19,…

It's quite irresponsible to try and coerce people who don't need treatment to accept it as well

No it isn't - it's providing unified and clear guidance on vaccination. I'm up in Canada where vaccine hesitancy has been almost unheard of[1] and those who refuse to get vaccinated, excepting those that can't for medical reasons, are ostracized for their overtly selfish actions. The US, though, has a real problem with disinformation being accepted more readily than fact. I am fine with the theory of having a nuanced and technical discussion of vaccine efficacy but I think it's pretty clear that that discussion can't happen in the public forum due to continued calls that hydroxychloroquine is an equally valid solution.

1. https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...

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