Live data from Hacker News

Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

nytimes.com

61–70 of 157 posts

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#61

Does America's ex-military personnel really teach people to dismember bodies? Is that an actual course, or did foreign psychopaths (albeit with state department approval) get training in actual military stuff (shooting, ironing beds, polishing boots, logistics, etc.) and then go on all by themselves to butcher journalists with a carving knife? I don't see the link here, other than a bit or outrage and a wee dopamine…

The training stuff show concrete practical support these units got. Khashoggi is not first or only person every killed by Saudi states. When you are training Saudi units, you know exactly that they will be used against political opponents, against activists and so on.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#62

Does America's ex-military personnel really teach people to dismember bodies? Is that an actual course, or did foreign psychopaths (albeit with state department approval) get training in actual military stuff (shooting, ironing beds, polishing boots, logistics, etc.) and then go on all by themselves to butcher journalists with a carving knife? I don't see the link here, other than a bit or outrage and a wee dopamine…

Is that even something you need to learn? How difficult can it be for several men to kill a single journalist in a controlled and protected environment like a room in an embassy, then cut the body up and transport it away. That's not exactly rocket science. I think the relevance of this news is generally that Murica trains agents of oppressive states.

Yeah the difficult part would be to keep it a secret, including all the gory details. But they failed at that which makes me question their expertise.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who do you think finances US debt, public and private? Who do you think pours money into defense contractors, financial services and politicians pockets? Who do we rely on to control the oil price for us? Who else is an important ally in the region for Israel? I dispise the Saudis, we should drop them and warm up to Iran, but that above 3 points are why no one has done it yet (plus momentum/tradition).

The US public debt is denominated in Dollars, does the Saudi manufacture Dollars? If not, how could then they finance the public debt?

They sell oil for dollars. They give the dollars to the fed and 101 other institutions as loans, those institutions lend the money to the government and private groups.

China does the same only they sell goods for dollars instead of oil.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#64
Saudi Arabia routinely dismembers their criminals, and has done so for many decades. They don't need training to do this.

Khaashoggi was working with the Qatari government against the interests of Saudi Arabia, in a very public way.

He is no more important than the millions of women subjugated and tortured by the regime on a daily basis, whose stories nobody will ever hear. He is propped up as some kind of martyr of hero because it helps with some other associated narratives which the media has an interest in.

The abstract story of Saudi Arabia butchers person who works against Saudi interests has been told countless times already.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#65
Imagine if some sane US president threw his/her hands up in the air and manages to convince the congress and senate to simply leave the Middle East alone to figure their affairs out for themselves. Take all the money you were spending in maintaining your military presence in Middle East and say augment investments in geographically sensible defense systems, modern spy satellites and intelligence. With the left over money, perhaps implement a single-payer healthcare system. Oh well, political leaders are only short-term thinkers now. They only pander to those that will vote for them or their party in the next elections....

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#66

There seems to be a "perpetual surprise" around Saudi Arabia. Its a shitty regime, we support, train, arm and cover for their shitty behaviour. That's how it is. We're 2nd-order responsible for crushing any move towards democracy, for radicalising the population, for the horrific treatment for women and lgbt+, for their war against Yeman, all of it. None of this should be "news" any more than its news that the navy h…

It boggles the mind.

But who cares if the Gulf states engage in all sorts of nastiness. SA is the apparent bastion against terror, Dubai is the place to visit and Qatar will host the 2022 Football World Cup.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#67

Why is keeping nice with the Saudi family so important? Why does the US government bend over backwards to cover up for them?

Let me give a little more context. Saudi Arabia had a relationship with the US early on and it was US contractors who developed the oil there initially. This is a very old relationship, basically it is the bases of Saudi Arabia, the realized early how powerful to US was and attached themselves.

The Saudi were very anti-Communist and opposed Arab nationalist (a 'socialist' type regime) in Egypt. In a period known as 'Arab Cold War'.

There was a fear that most of the middle east would unify under Arab nationalism. The Saudi were opposed that.

A second important part is the sale of oil, people will often argue that this is less important now because domestic production. However it was always more about European and later Asian allies of the US and ensuring oil for them.

The relations were at is worse during the oil crisis. However once the Iranian revolution happened, and Iran was no longer an US ally there was major fear of Soviet invasion or Iranian revolution spreadng. Jimmy Carter declared the 'Carter doctrine':

> Let our position be absolutely clear: An attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force.

Since their major client Iran was gone the US basically 'had to' depend on Saudi Arabia.

This was then majorly expanded upon by Reagan. While up to this point, relation were diplomatic (and CIA blabla) under Reagan there was a militarization. Bases were starting to build in the region and the US wanted to sell more weapons to the Saudi, Qatar, Bahrain as well.

The US started to build bases in Saudi itself during the first Golf War (that was the major reason for 9/11 btw).

Since 9/11 despise what the general population wants (and correctly believes), politically the US sees Saudi as a major ally in the 'fight for terrorism' when it is convenient but the consistent opposition to Iran is arguably the more important part.

Saudi Arabia has also totally sold out the Palestinians and has been practically allied with Israel.

So here are why the US politicians continue this 'partnership':

- Major oil state that insures sale to European and Asian allies

- Oppose Iran

- Oppose the Islamic Brotherhood (Saudi paid for the overthrow of the Egyptian 'democracy')

- Saudi regime drove AQAP (Al Quida Arab Peninsula) out of Saudi and pretends to fight them in Yemen

- Saudi (and golf state) buy a gigantic amount weapons to the point where Trump basically treated the Crown Prince like cash cow and made him do TV ads with him

- Saudi spend a lot of lobbying and fund many of the 'think tanks'

- Saudi and Israel get along

However, this episode here that so many people car about is literally never what the US cared about. An allied regime killing journalist is about as interesting as empty glass of water. To me this is a total non-story.

This is only a media outrage story. The US routinely helps in repression of journalists and what the US/Saudi are doing in Yemen is about a million times were the this Khashoggi thing. Not to mention that they are also oppressing and killing journalist there too, but I guess there are not good videos of it so it can be safely ignored.

In my opinion the whole strategic approach the US has towards the Saudi and the Middle East in general is fundamentally flawed and pilled on top of a whole bunch of wrong assumption.

Unfortunately realignment in foreign policy is very difficult. With Israel and Saudi (and co) money continually buying of congress/Washington while Iran and others don't have such powerful lobbying organizations within the US.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#68
post #41

Why is keeping nice with the Saudi family so important? Why does the US government bend over backwards to cover up for them?

> Why is keeping nice with the Saudi family so important? Why does the US government bend over backwards to cover up for them? Because they spawn outfits who ram airplanes into skyscrapers. I see no logic in this, but some "expert geopolitical strategists" do. Same with Israel, sinks USS Liberty, and then people on the hill go orgasmic, because "higher meaning" — whatever that means. A simpler explanation which seems…

One of the teachers at a major Israeli military university claims that Israel is intentionally acting like a mad dog i.e. willing to take down the rest of the world with them should they go down, and that most European capitols are a target for their airforce. Whether that's rhetoric or reality, I don't think anyone intends to find out.[0]

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/sep/21/israelandthepa...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_van_Creveld

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#69
post #5

Why is keeping nice with the Saudi family so important? Why does the US government bend over backwards to cover up for them?

One theory is “petro dollars” - Saudi Arabia mandates all of their oil is purchased in dollars, thus ensuring global demand for dollars as every country needs oil. In return, the US has their back unconditionally. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_recycling#Petrod...

I’m sure it’s been asked and answered before but is there a realistic alternative to USD for such transactions? I imagine Euros would be the next-best bet, being the second-most traded currency.

Edit: While I don’t agree with the person below who replied saying crypto could fill this gap, I don’t think they should be downvoted to the point where we can’t reply. I even hit the “vouch” button but it’s still not possible.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#70

Imagine if some sane US president threw his/her hands up in the air and manages to convince the congress and senate to simply leave the Middle East alone to figure their affairs out for themselves. Take all the money you were spending in maintaining your military presence in Middle East and say augment investments in geographically sensible defense systems, modern spy satellites and intelligence. With the left over m…

I would venture to suggest that the Middle East as a whole is a cash cow for the US - oil, weapons contracts - so aint nothin' gonna change until that changes.
Post reply on HN