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The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

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Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#61
post #60

Maybe we should stop using water for agriculture in Cali? 5% of the water in California is for urban use[1]. It always drove me up the wall when the state issued rules reducing water usage for people when they give plenty of water to all the farms ... IN THE MIDDLE OF A DESERT ... [1] https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/ There's plenty of water for the cities, just not the agriculture. It's part…

Some places have great soil for agriculture but not enough water. Some places have plenty of water but not so great soil. You can have a globally more productive society if you arrange to bring the good soil and the abundant water together. Since it is way easier to transport water than to transport soil (there is no soil equivalent to the pipeline or the aqueduct) that is generally the direction we've went.

Or hydroponics/aquaponics, where you don't need any soil, and only about 10% of the water.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#62
post #2

Well, those photos of Lake Mead are terrifying. Maybe severe water shortages this summer will wake people up that climate change isn't some liberal fetish.

California's drought isn't caused by climate change, it's caused by industrial scale exports of highly water intensive crops. Photosynthesis effectively locks water into plants that then get transported across the globe, de facto exporting water from California (remember photosynthesis consumes water + CO2 to produce sugar and oxygen). Add on plants like almonds that inherently store moisture inside themselves and yo…

I'm not sure accurate the gallon of water per almond is or if it's still the case, but it's pretty obvious the most of the water isn't being exported, and a lot of what is exported would have drained into the ocean 150 years ago.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's drought isn't caused by climate change, it's caused by industrial scale exports of highly water intensive crops. Photosynthesis effectively locks water into plants that then get transported across the globe, de facto exporting water from California (remember photosynthesis consumes water + CO2 to produce sugar and oxygen). Add on plants like almonds that inherently store moisture inside themselves and yo…

I'm not sure accurate the gallon of water per almond is or if it's still the case, but it's pretty obvious the most of the water isn't being exported, and a lot of what is exported would have drained into the ocean 150 years ago.

It could be 10% of the volume of an almond is water exported per almond and you'd still get the same effects. This is what happens when you grow crops on thousands of square miles of land and export all of them. It adds up.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure accurate the gallon of water per almond is or if it's still the case, but it's pretty obvious the most of the water isn't being exported, and a lot of what is exported would have drained into the ocean 150 years ago.

It could be 10% of the volume of an almond is water exported per almond and you'd still get the same effects. This is what happens when you grow crops on thousands of square miles of land and export all of them. It adds up.

> It adds up.

Almonds take around 3 feet of water to grow commercially. The region they're gown in in California gets around 12 inches of annual rainfall. If the shortfall is covered with groundwater, you have a point, but a lot of it is also diverted snow melt (which, to complicate matters, can recharge groundwater). It really depends on where they're being grown, even within the central valley.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#65
post #6

Yet Maricopa County, Arizona (Phoenix) had more growth from 2010 to 2019 than any other county in the U.S.[0] Clark County, Nevada (Las Vegas) wasn't far behind. [0] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2020/pop-esti...

Arizona today is using less water now than it did in the 50s, despite that massive increase in population. There's hope that by the end of the decade it will be entirely groundwater neutral. The population is not really the issue, especially given that domestic usage isn't anywhere close to the largest consumer.

Crossposting from yesterday’s thread where Phoenix is somehow getting held up as the platonic ideal of water responsibility:

> Phoenix has made strides, but largely because it started from such a low, low bar. Exemplified by the Navajo Generating Plant, one of the largest coal fired power plants ever built, just to power pumps for lifting Colorado River water 2900ft up to Phoenix.

> Not to mention the damage to the Colorado, which no longer has enough flow to reach the ocean. That “Net groundwater contributor” comment? It’s because Phoenix drains the Colorado and pumps it into the city’s private aquifers

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27556422

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#66
post #60

Maybe we should stop using water for agriculture in Cali? 5% of the water in California is for urban use[1]. It always drove me up the wall when the state issued rules reducing water usage for people when they give plenty of water to all the farms ... IN THE MIDDLE OF A DESERT ... [1] https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/ There's plenty of water for the cities, just not the agriculture. It's part…

Some places have great soil for agriculture but not enough water. Some places have plenty of water but not so great soil. You can have a globally more productive society if you arrange to bring the good soil and the abundant water together. Since it is way easier to transport water than to transport soil (there is no soil equivalent to the pipeline or the aqueduct) that is generally the direction we've went.

It's mostly a myth that you need great soil to grow anything in farming.

Most of the time, the soil merely acts as a substrate to temporarily hold water with nutrients from the fertilizer that was put there during irrigation.

Having great soil does help, obviously, in that you can probably save on fertilizer costs, but in the end the soil will be depleted regardless by industrial farming.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#67
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> climate change isn't some liberal fetish It's not and I'm pretty sure most people agree. But the activists are focusing their efforts in all the wrong places. We have Extinction Rebellion extremists gluing themselves to electric trains in London. Electric. In the mean while, the likes of China and India are by far the biggest culprits while Africa is projected to quadruple it's population while rapidly industrializ…

> the likes of China and India are by far the biggest culprits while Africa is projected to quadruple it's population while rapidly industrializing. The growing number of people is the main problem. Bullshit. The western ignorance and entitlement is unreal. Americans and Europeans are responsible for the vast majority of historical CO2 emissions, while having a small fraction of the world's population. If someone is…

Historically the west has pumped out more CO2, but we are not talking about historic levels, we are talking about current and future levels as those are what we can do something about.

And here China and India is going to be the main issue in the growing CO2 production. This has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with physics.

We haven't made great renewables for the same reason we haven't made flying cars: the tech is too far advanced for what we can do.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rain prone areas are too cold for much of the year.

Hydroponics allow you grow crops in PVC pipes with a lot less water wastage and theoretically maybe even move them around on trucks. You could grow something on a parking lot. Could be the future if climate change results in unpredictable weather and you don’t want to lose your crop to an early frost. Northern Ontario has tons of lakes, nice summers and lots of rock to anchor humongous hydroponic towers to.

> Hydroponics allow you grow crops in PVC pipes with a lot less water wastage and theoretically maybe even move them around on trucks. You could grow something on a parking lot.

I really like hydroponics, but you never (rarely?) see it used to grow heavier, food-dense foods like potatoes, or anything that grows on a tree. It’s all leafy salad greens and strawberries. I don’t really know why that is.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My neighbor growing up had a 300 acre vegetable farm. Now defunct as the family couldn’t compete with subsidized Western and Canadian agriculture.

I doubt it’s just western farms. I’m from the Midwest, my mom grew up on a farm and she ended up selling that land, pretty much 90% of family owned farms went bankrupt in favor of corporate farms that benefit from economies of scale. I actually think it’s something like 95% of farms are now owned by corporations.

Small farmers face a lot of hazards.

At that time (early/mid 90s),the western farms were the boogeyman post-nafta. It’s sad because IMO companies will be less efficient and have lower overheads than smaller operations in the long run. As more and more consolidation happens and competitive forces make way for cartels, the overheads of $2M/year CEOs and other corporate bs will start to impact prices and supply - but of course it will be too late.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#70
post #2

Well, those photos of Lake Mead are terrifying. Maybe severe water shortages this summer will wake people up that climate change isn't some liberal fetish.

> climate change isn't some liberal fetish It's not and I'm pretty sure most people agree. But the activists are focusing their efforts in all the wrong places. We have Extinction Rebellion extremists gluing themselves to electric trains in London. Electric. In the mean while, the likes of China and India are by far the biggest culprits while Africa is projected to quadruple it's population while rapidly industrializ…

> In the mean while, the likes of China and India are by far the biggest culprits while Africa is projected to quadruple it's population while rapidly industrializing.

India!?

India emits less than half the CO2 that the US does, and almost an order of magnitude less per capita.

China is twice the total as the US but about half per capita.

Africa was way lower than the US both in total and per capita.

And yes, per capita is the correct comparison, because the atmosphere does not care about arbitrary political boundaries.

Let C be the total amount of greenhouse gas emissions per year that the world as a whole can produce to keep the climate within acceptable parameters.

We do not have a one world government, so staying under C requires a per country approach, probably some sort of quota system. The question then is how to determine each country's share of C.

One approach is simply allocate each country C/N where N is the number of countries. This approach fails because if country X splits up into multiple separate countries, with no change in any greenhouse gas related activities of anyone who was in X, the quota for every other country goes down. In fact, the new countries that were formerly part of X might all actually be able to shift toward more greenhouse gas production.

Example. Let us say C = 10000, N = 200. Then each country has a quote of 50. The US finds it hard to limit itself to 50, having say 5 states that each on their own produce 30. Solution: turn each US state into a separate country, tied together in an EU like web of treaties so that life doesn't actually change much for the people living in those new 50 countries. Now N = 249, quota drops to 40.16 per country, and now those 5 countries that were once problematical at 30 each have quotes of 40.16 and are OK. The American Union as a whole would have a quote of 2008, and many of the new countries could now actually switch to heavier use of fossil fuels.

It goes the other way too. If Russia for example was able to reform the Soviet Union and get back all its former components, everyone other country would see their quota go up around 7%.

To fix this you have to abandon the idea of the quota being equal per country. The quota needs to be per person. Then all that changes when you redraw your maps and the US becomes the American Union or the Soviet Union reforms is who is in charge of enforcing the quota on a given group of people--the amount of emissions allowed by that given group does not change.

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