Context: Why I no longer contribute to Racket . https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27531508
Discussion on Lobsters.
https://lobste.rs/s/6rnyn9/why_i_no_longer_contribute_racket
Apology
61–70 of 282 posts
Re: Apology
#62Doesn't sit right that he is so focused on the one example of what was supposed to be lot of bad behaviour over time. From the first blogpost/accusation it was clearly a personality problem, however here it is treated as a singular episode.
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Re: Apology
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have no doubt it is honest, but it's not a good apology. He barely remembers the specific incident (by his own admission). That's not his fault, but it makes the apology pretty much meaningless. He seems to assume he was a bit of a grumpy-puss that day, and that "jaded" their subsequent interactions. This is incredibly glib and diminishes the specific incident. But more importantly, he never admits to being a bully…
What's a bully? Someone who loses their temper? Someone who's scary and makes enemies more easily than friends? I think a bully is someone who uses intimidation to get their way, if someone intimidates random bystanders what they have is a need to work on their emotional self-control.
It's more like someone who habitually uses power in a mean way.
Re: Apology
#64Context: Why I no longer contribute to Racket . https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27531508
I really think people need to learn to push back, and talk plainly. This could have easily been a blog called "that time Felleisen was being a cunt and I told him to go fuck himself" and been 1/4 the length.
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Re: Apology
#65[deleted]
Re: Apology
#66Re: Apology
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
What's a bully? Someone who loses their temper? Someone who's scary and makes enemies more easily than friends? I think a bully is someone who uses intimidation to get their way, if someone intimidates random bystanders what they have is a need to work on their emotional self-control.
It's more like someone who habitually uses power in a mean way.
There's a difference between someone who is naturally mean and happens to be in power and someone that uses meanness to get power.
Re: Apology
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are very real cultural differences and taboos against questioning and pushing back against authority. What one culture may view as normal and expected process in improvement, another is horrified and ashamed to consider. Do not assume just because you've grown up or grown accustomed to it that it's 'normal' or practiced everywhere. This is perhaps one of the biggest frictions I see in teams that are full of fol…
Where do people stay silent for so long? [Edit: rephrased]
Did you read the original blog post? They clearly mention at the end they posted it because they were repeatedly asked why they disengaged from the Racket community:
"Why mention any of this now? Two reasons.
Over the last year, friends in the Racket community have asked me why I’ve reduced my involvement. Absent anything else, they assume the most obvious reason: that I’m bored or frustrated with Racket as a language. That I’ve moved on to other things.
Not true. On the contrary, it seems important to reassert: I like almost everything about Racket. It’s still my favorite programming environment. I use it almost every day. I wish I could still contribute the way I did before. But I can’t subject myself to more of the same. In that sense, it feels more like exile than withdrawal.
I’ve been involved with FOSS projects for nearly 25 years. A project that depends on free contributions of time & effort—as every FOSS project does—needs to be an appealing place for others to make gifts of their time. Sure, in any community of opinionated humans, occasional frictions and disagreements are natural. But Felleisen’s outrageous hostility went far beyond anything I’d experienced."
Also this main issue occurred three years ago. It is very odd to assume that someone decided to just sit on an issue for three years and then suddenly gotcha throw it out of nowhere.
This person was bullied out of the Racket community. They quietly left rather than try to fight against aggressive personalities. That's the real story here, and what happens in 99% of similar incidents.
Re: Apology
#69Context: Why I no longer contribute to Racket . https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27531508
So both just needed to talk to each other? No idea why they have to go through HN proxies.
Social stuff can be amazingly hard to sort out sometimes.
One of the benefits of the internet is that text makes it easier to "not raise your voice" so to speak. People who trigger each other in person and yadda may not know how to get past that more directly.
This is not a justification for anything. I hope they manage to build bridges and all that. This is the first I've personally seen this particular dispute.
Re: Apology
#70apology? nothing of what I read sounds like an apology. You basically said that your friends told you that what you did looked bad, and based on that, you feel sorry that he "felt" hurt. Then go on saying how good and gracious you were to him? c'mon... edit: typo
If this isn't a real apology then what would you say a real apology looks like? Of the many public apologies I've read in the past this reads like an honest, genuine one. He admitted guilt, explained what he did wrong and did not try to justify it, and clearly stated that he apologizes. What's missing?
Six parts to a real apology:
Expression of regret. "I am truly sorry." - Check.
Explanation of what went wrong. "I must have directed angry words at you, who clearly had nothing to do with how the day had gone." - This is weaselly. "I must have...", not "I did".
Acknowledgment of responsibility. " I clearly forget that I am the oldest and most experienced—and I should act this way in a post-mortem conversation." - Weaselly. Whether he was oldest and most experienced or not, no one should behave this way. And rather than taking the responsibility, it's chalked up to forgetfulness.
Declaration of repentance. - Nothing here. No commitment to change. No stated intention for better emotional management.
Offer of repair. - "Finally, as you surely recall, I encouraged you throughout 2019, in person and in email, to join the Racket leadership;" In the absence of any kind of effort or commitment to change, this would not be received as a positive offer. But rather an extension of exposure to an abusive individual. Not much of a repair.
Request for forgiveness. - Nothing here either.