Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

blog.codinghorror.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–69 of 69 posts

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#61

Post by golergka »

barbarbar wrote: post #60
golergka wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A well done CRUD app should be pretty simple Should it? I'm currently building a "simple" CRUD app as a side-project. My background is in game development and backend, and I decided to learn React and React Native in the process. But at one point I realised that I want to app to be functional while the user doesn't have internet and sync afterwards, and now I'm in hell. Now, I have to make all post requests idempot…

Keep state on the server. Start with zero javascript.

And how would my app work without internet, I that case?

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#62

Post by icedchai »

golergka wrote: post #61
barbarbar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep state on the server. Start with zero javascript.

And how would my app work without internet, I that case?

Why exactly are you worrying about this case? Start with a simple server-side rendered forms-based web app.

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#63

Post by mattbee »

BeFlatXIII wrote: post #53
mattbee wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me too. But this rant still resonates and speaks to a snobbery that's still occasionally alive. I am surprised that high quality web apps still seem just as rare in 2021 as they did in 2009 despite the explosion of tools. i.e. apps that do something non-trivial, where the network usage disappears under "acceptable interaction time", where the UI toolkit is consistent & discoverable, where nothing is broken. But it's…

> if you want to program software that people use, it's using web technology or it's a video game or it's a tiny tiny niche. Or it’s a mobile app (though that can overlap with both video game and tiny niche if you want to make an app that covers all three bases at once).

That's true - though most apps I use on my phone respond like like webviews.

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#64

Post by golergka »

icedchai wrote: post #62
golergka wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how would my app work without internet, I that case?

Why exactly are you worrying about this case? Start with a simple server-side rendered forms-based web app.

Because it's a very basic requirement for a mobile app.

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#65

Post by barbarbar »

golergka wrote: post #64
icedchai wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why exactly are you worrying about this case? Start with a simple server-side rendered forms-based web app.

Because it's a very basic requirement for a mobile app.

Then maybe it is a PWA that you are looking for. But this fine site we are using now works 100% without javascript. And it is fast.

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#66

Post by icedchai »

golergka wrote: post #64
icedchai wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why exactly are you worrying about this case? Start with a simple server-side rendered forms-based web app.

Because it's a very basic requirement for a mobile app.

Then you should build a native app. I never expect any web apps to work offline. If they do, that's nice, not expected.

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#67

Post by ContentSP321 »

barbarbar wrote: post #65
golergka wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's a very basic requirement for a mobile app.

Then maybe it is a PWA that you are looking for. But this fine site we are using now works 100% without javascript. And it is fast.

The "P" in Progressive Web App: https://infrequently.org/2015/06/progressive-apps-escaping-t...

Reminds me of the "P" in Progressive Enhancement: https://blog.tomayac.com/2020/01/23/progressive-enhancement-...

There are many valid reasons to support the full "PWA experience" and have fallbacks that works without JavaScript, and it is attainable. I have personally built PWAs that work offline with JavaScript enabled, as well as with a network connection without JavaScript enabled.

It might be better to think of a PWA as a regular high performant "mobile first web application" that took the right vitamins. ;-) The vitamins in this case are usage of service workers and a "Web app manifest."

From my perspective, the "Offline First" + "Mobile First" approaches have produced the most progressively enhanced web applications that I've even seen.

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#68

Post by collyw »

golergka wrote: post #57
collyw wrote: post #12

I never get why CRUD work is looked down upon by many on this site amongst others. Most applications are a variation on CRUD. A well done CRUD app should be pretty simple, but simplicity is not something that our industry encourages, the interview process often selects for the ability to produce complexity. As a result most CRUD apps (certainly the ones I have inherited) are an over engineered mess.

> A well done CRUD app should be pretty simple Should it? I'm currently building a "simple" CRUD app as a side-project. My background is in game development and backend, and I decided to learn React and React Native in the process. But at one point I realised that I want to app to be functional while the user doesn't have internet and sync afterwards, and now I'm in hell. Now, I have to make all post requests idempot…

Well you have automatically gone for a SPA app architecture, without giving any reason why. Looks like your problem is practising resume driven development. CRUD apps do not require SPA architecture.

Have a look at the Django tutorial, and see what you can produce with the Admin interface. It is a while lot less pain that what you are doing just now.

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#69

Post by collyw »

gorjusborg wrote: post #56
collyw wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using well tested libraries is likely more reliable than something I have written myself. Though in my personal experience Python (or Perl) libraries seem to be far higher quality than JavaScript libraries.

I used to feel this way, strongly. Now I think about whether the downsides of relying on third party dependencies are outweighed by the upsides. Supply chain attacks are real. Project maintenance suffers for many projects in the long term. If you can write a left-pad function, just write left-pad. If you are implementing a 200 page open spec for a system that needs to interoperate with 100s of other systems, consider…

Yes, I am pretty much in agreement with you there. It's a balance, and as you say smaller things may well be better without a library, but larger things maybe not. And there are going to be exceptions to this rule of thumb.
Post reply on HN