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Detectives Just Used DNA to Solve a 1956 Double Homicide

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Re: Detectives Just Used DNA to Solve a 1956 Double Homicide

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police going to ask them in the first place was a wrong decision. A family minding their own business doing nothing wrong should not be burdened with someone showing up at their door saying "we think that you're the children of a murder rapist. If you don't help us that's definitely what we're going to conclude. If you do help us there's a chance that we'll conclude it anyway, but you never know. He's dead now so…

Are you saying you wouldn't like to know if your father were a rapist-murderer? I don't get it, really. And I'm pretty sure it can help those people learn better about themselves and their past. This is why they accepted.

Someone in my family actually DID go to prison for something aweful. I would be perfectly fine never knowing about it.

Re: Detectives Just Used DNA to Solve a 1956 Double Homicide

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I believe this article is to be a “tug your heartstrings” to be against the very logical restriction on forensic DNA analysis by “reconstructing a reverse family tree” which is quite often wrong.

While it can be wrong the cost of a wrong is minor--they test the DNA, it doesn't match, they continue their search, now perhaps with better information as to how the tree fits together.

> While it can be wrong the cost of a wrong is minor

NO. NO NO NO. The cost is VERY much NOT MINOR. In the 80s and 90s, DNA was over used and it was incorrectly used to put the wrong people in prison for a very long time. The cost of mistakes is NOT trivial.

Re: Detectives Just Used DNA to Solve a 1956 Double Homicide

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, we all know that any woman who cheats on her boyfriend is immediately murdered by the same guy she cheated with.

Just like we know that the spouse that has a life insurance policy opened on them is immediately murdered by the surviving spouse, instead of the life insurance agent We don't! We just assume!

I watch a lot of Forensic Files, and one of the tropes is "the spouse had a $30k life insurance policy, therefore he/she had motive".

I've always wondered who is motivated to murder by as little as $30k. Sure you can murder for NON financial reasons, but if money is top of mind - $30k, really?

Re: Detectives Just Used DNA to Solve a 1956 Double Homicide

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying you wouldn't like to know if your father were a rapist-murderer? I don't get it, really. And I'm pretty sure it can help those people learn better about themselves and their past. This is why they accepted.

Someone in my family actually DID go to prison for something aweful. I would be perfectly fine never knowing about it.

May I ask why you would rather not have known? I would assume truth is always better for safety concerns if not anything else.

Re: Detectives Just Used DNA to Solve a 1956 Double Homicide

#65
post #50

I've personally followed Andrew Singer's/BODE's work and have been present in his (and other forensic genealogists) presentations to the forensics community. I was literally in the audience 2 days ago for another of his. I am a professional Forensic Scientist who is specialized in DNA. My educational background is in biochemistry & molecular genetics. Feel free to ask me anything. There is a lot of misunderstandings…

> to suggest that modern DNA forensic science is questionable is farce.

https://strbase.nist.gov/pub_pres/Coble-ABA2014-MIX13.pdf

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/21/opinion/the-dangers-of-dn...

"Researchers [in 2013] from the National Institute of Standards and Technology gave the same DNA mixture to about 105 American crime laboratories and three Canadian labs and asked them to compare it with DNA from three suspects from a mock bank robbery. ... 74 labs wrongly said the sample included DNA evidence from the third suspect, an “innocent person” who should have been cleared of the hypothetical felony."

That 2013 NIST report was not published until 5 years later in 2018.

How "modern" do we need to get, exactly?

Is less than a week ago modern? https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2021/06/nist-publishes...

"KEY TAKEAWAY #4.3: Currently, there is not enough publicly available data to enable an external and independent assessment of the degree of reliability of DNA mixture interpretation practices, including the use of probabilistic genotyping software (PGS) systems."

> If there were unqualified interpretations they would be thrown out of the courthouse in a nanosecond.

All you have to do is search for "DNA lab mishandled" or "forensic lab mishandled" to see that what you're saying is extremely wrong and naïve. And besides this is a case where there's no courthouse, no defense, no chance to determine whether the interpretation is an error.

> There have been major issues with interpretation in the past with non-accredited crime labs/analysts/methods/persons making bogus conclusions, but these days, and for the last 15+ years, has just plain not happened.

Again see the above references to evidence mishandling and _extremely_ recent NIST reports.

You seem to suffer from the misapprehension that statistical algorithms are magic and that DNA analysis happens in a computational vacuum and that there isn't an extremely error-prone physical process involved in collecting, preparing, maintaining, and analyzing specimens and that we don't have a very long and continuing history of falsifying evidence, mishandling specimens, biased interpretation, erroneous conclusions presented as fact, and covering up procedural errors.

> She was raped and killed, who's DNA was on the vaginal swab? Most likely the perpetrator.

First, you mean whose DNA was _allegedly_ on a vaginal swab. You have no reason to believe that a specimen collected in _1956_ has been handled and preserved correctly this entire time. Second, "I think it's most likely so we don't need to worry about defense" is not how criminal justice works.

> I have met with many victims personally.

I notice that you did not say you met with the family of the accused, which is the family I was talking about. I thought that would be clear in context, but maybe not. Anyway it should be clear now.

"I have met with many victims personally" sounds a lot like you work mostly with prosecutors. Unfortunately that role often goes hand in hand with blatant disregard for exceedingly rampant and flagrant due process failures.

> We can tell that the person was "there."

You can't even reliably tell that a person's DNA is present in a mixture at the time of analysis let alone whether a person was in a particular place at a particular time 65 years ago. Believing that you can is why innocent people keep going to prison. The list of utterly bunk forensic techniques that get presented as fact because prosecution relies on juror ignorance and compliance is a mile long. Can we just stop doing that, please?

Re: Detectives Just Used DNA to Solve a 1956 Double Homicide

#66
post #14

NPR, totally not a state propaganda organ, runs pro-forensic "science" propaganda. Why does this not surprise me anymore?

Are you against forensic science or do you doubt the validity of it?

A lot of forensic science, such as hair analysis, bullet casing analysis, and bite mark analysis, is either partially or entirely bunk.

- https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fbi-overstated-fo...

- https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/reversing-legacy-jun...

- http://www.bostonreview.net/books-ideas/nathan-robinson-fore...

Re: Detectives Just Used DNA to Solve a 1956 Double Homicide

#67
post #17

Ignoring for a moment the obvious hitch that sperm does not automatically equal murder, there's also the problem that DNA forensics suffers from the same fakery problem that other criminal forensic techniques suffer from especially when samples are old and mixed https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727733-500-fallible... DNA matching from a decades old mixed tissue slide is not an exact process and many factors f…

> I see zero benefit to going through the final steps after they determined that their suspect had already died If the victim has living friends & family, it provides closure. Additionally, solving cases, however old, boosts public confidence that crimes will not go unpunished, which in turn acts as a deterrent for future crime.

> Additionally, solving cases, however old, boosts public confidence that crimes will not go unpunished

But in this particular case, the family of the suspect was really the only one to get “punishment”, not the actual suspect (which now had no way of defense as others have pointed out).

Re: Detectives Just Used DNA to Solve a 1956 Double Homicide

#68
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The family agreed to help the police figure it out. Maybe their reaction to learning the news was more like "yeah this makes sense - dad was an abusive asshole my whole life. At least I wasn't killed".

> The family agreed to help the police figure it out. No. A couple of children, grand children, or cousins agreed to share their DNA (or it was legally removed without consent). The rest could have told the cops "NO", and they still would have gotten enough DNA evidence.

This. Detectives’ thirst for solving (or just finding someone to blame/force a confession out of) crimes will often override their duty for true justice, by whatever means they want.

Re: Detectives Just Used DNA to Solve a 1956 Double Homicide

#69
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/san-franci... Seems to be a direct counter example. Punishments for shoplifting was effectively made nonexistent and then organized crime rings sprung up to begin shoplifting.

The problem with that is the government has no only removed prison as a punishment, but also removed all possible punishment as they have refused any accountability at all and disallows the use of force to defend property. That is far far far different than what the OP is talking about

The comment by the appropriately named “moron4hire” said the threat of punishment doesn’t work, not “prison isn’t the best form of punishment”.
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