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Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

nytimes.com

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Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#61

Post by stirfish »

Syonyk wrote: post #44

I wish I'd taken a photo of the "survey" they sent me the other day. I've managed to get junk mail from both sides of the political spectrum now, which has been interesting (the conservative groups have had me on their mailing list forever, and I think a subscription to Harpers got me on the liberal groups). Unfortunately, other than the issues involved, I can't really tell a big difference between fundraising styles…

> Since it's apparently against federal law to leave whitespace in such a fundraising request,

Oh nice, we are following federal fundraising laws now. This is an improvement.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#62

Post by tpmx »

Avshalom wrote: post #49
tpmx wrote: post #22

I like this idea: https://twitter.com/kittypurrzog/status/1401610476237197312 The ACLU should split into two groups: ACLU Sr, which fights for free speech rights, and ACLU Jr, which fights against them (Yes, I saw this when PG retweeted it.)

You know free speech isn't the only civil liberty right?

It does seem to be the one civil liberty where ACLU people very strongly disagree with each other.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#63

Post by istorical »

nxc18 wrote: post #21
jseliger wrote: post #2

I was a member for 10 years and stopped renewing a year or two ago, when it seemed to stop putting free speech and expression first.

Same. I was turned off by the “my way or the highway” mentality on trans issues shown in their Twitter. Failure to defend 2A rights, now that NRA is clearly not principled in any way (maybe it never was), also bothered me. It is hard to imagine them defending an anti-trans person in 2021. As despicable as those people are, they still have civil rights. As a gay man, I would have been despicable for most of the past 1…

> As a gay man, I would have been despicable for most of the past 100+ years, but the ACLU would have defended me anyway. That version of the ACLU no longer exists.

This precise thing is why it's baffling that people can suggest cancel culture is only something to complain about if you've done / said something wrong. What is considered wrong does not always age well. Sometimes we ourselves are the baddies.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#64

Post by Syonyk »

stirfish wrote: post #61
Syonyk wrote: post #44

I wish I'd taken a photo of the "survey" they sent me the other day. I've managed to get junk mail from both sides of the political spectrum now, which has been interesting (the conservative groups have had me on their mailing list forever, and I think a subscription to Harpers got me on the liberal groups). Unfortunately, other than the issues involved, I can't really tell a big difference between fundraising styles…

> Since it's apparently against federal law to leave whitespace in such a fundraising request, Oh nice, we are following federal fundraising laws now. This is an improvement.

I think they dream these things up more while drinking claws.

But it's very, very consistent. The "Outrage you so you give us money" letters in these surveys don't leave any whitespace on the last page.

On the other hand, there are some groups I support who will send something along the lines of a 10 page, single sided, properly written letter (no random *BOLD* italic and the ever-popular "ink pen looking circles to draw your attention to the outrage of the day") explaining in competent written English what they've been doing, where they'd like to expand, and what they need to accomplish this. I'm far, far more likely to support those groups (though I generally just give locally, I've less interest in what's going on in Washington than in our local town and region).

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#65

Post by jacobsenscott »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #31

Free speech is table stakes for a free society. Those claiming otherwise are playing with fire.

There has never been a society where this is true. Certainly where I live, in the US, free speech is code for "white men are allowed to say whatever they want" while the speech of other groups can be violently repressed without consequence.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#66

Post by IshKebab »

istorical wrote: post #63
nxc18 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. I was turned off by the “my way or the highway” mentality on trans issues shown in their Twitter. Failure to defend 2A rights, now that NRA is clearly not principled in any way (maybe it never was), also bothered me. It is hard to imagine them defending an anti-trans person in 2021. As despicable as those people are, they still have civil rights. As a gay man, I would have been despicable for most of the past 1…

> As a gay man, I would have been despicable for most of the past 100+ years, but the ACLU would have defended me anyway. That version of the ACLU no longer exists. This precise thing is why it's baffling that people can suggest cancel culture is only something to complain about if you've done / said something wrong. What is considered wrong does not always age well. Sometimes we ourselves are the baddies.

Yeah I think it's interesting to think what people of today will be cancelled for. My best guesses are eating meat, and doing business with China.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#67

Post by akvadrako »

JohnTHaller wrote: post #53
kbelder wrote: post #12

I honestly think they were compromised from the very beginning, with their mission of "defending every civil right... except the 2nd amendment, we don't like that one." But they still fought lots of commendable battles, sticking up for people that nobody else would. I think that's what they've lost... they would be scared to stick up for somebody that might get the wrong people upset with them.

"ACLU Position: Given the reference to "a well regulated Militia" and "the security of a free State," the ACLU has long taken the position that the Second Amendment protects a collective right rather than an individual right." https://www.aclu.org/other/second-amendment

That's a pretty stupid position, since it's pretty clear the 2nd amendment is saying that it's a right of "the people". The preface is to explain the reason it's a right, that is to form the Militia, which is commonly understood to consist of most able-bodied men.

If individuals aren't allowed to own and practice with weapons normally, then when it's needed the Militia will not be "well-regulated", as in well-armed or trained.

The 2nd amendment is really very important to all civil liberties, since otherwise there is nothing to stop a repressive government from taking control.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#68

Post by [deleted] »

jacobsenscott wrote: post #65
slowmovintarget wrote: post #31

Free speech is table stakes for a free society. Those claiming otherwise are playing with fire.

There has never been a society where this is true. Certainly where I live, in the US, free speech is code for "white men are allowed to say whatever they want" while the speech of other groups can be violently repressed without consequence.

[deleted]

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#69

Post by dmitrygr »

jacobsenscott wrote: post #65
slowmovintarget wrote: post #31

Free speech is table stakes for a free society. Those claiming otherwise are playing with fire.

There has never been a society where this is true. Certainly where I live, in the US, free speech is code for "white men are allowed to say whatever they want" while the speech of other groups can be violently repressed without consequence.

IF you are right, that just means we need MORE free speech for those who don't have it, NOT less for those who do!

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#70

Post by eli_gottlieb »

jacobsenscott wrote: post #65
slowmovintarget wrote: post #31

Free speech is table stakes for a free society. Those claiming otherwise are playing with fire.

There has never been a society where this is true. Certainly where I live, in the US, free speech is code for "white men are allowed to say whatever they want" while the speech of other groups can be violently repressed without consequence.

>To which David Cole, the national legal director of the A.C.L.U., rejoined in an interview: “Everything that Black Lives Matter does is possible because of the First Amendment.”
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