Does anyone know which of these courses are great to learn more about system design?
Principles of Data-Intensive Systems [0] seems to cover some of the system design topics
Stanford CS Curriculum 2021
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Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
FWIW, I've never seen any value whatsoever in these ethics classes (note: I'm not saying it's not an important topic, it's extremely important). The hypotheticals and situations presented and discussed in many of them are very similar to yearly mandatory classes we have to take at FAANG (and many other workplaces I assume) and it boils down to having a checkbox that says "I'm not stupid". Real world ethics is much mo…
I had a required ethics course for my CS degree. I can't recall anything from it. I also took a one day ethics course at a FAANG that was excellent. Far better than a "I'm not stupid" checkbox. I think both of these are true: - Ethics should be a required course for CS. - CS classes in general do a poor job of tracking well with the industry. Fine for some things (eg, theory), but awful for others (eg, any Software E…
I like your approach here. As strange as it sounds the path to ethical action in tech requires cultivating the kind of imagination required to think of all the ways tech can be used for ill (sometimes called 'design noir'). I'd hope a curriculum would have a hefty dose of this.
Gone are the days we can just build something and act naive about what ways tech can be abused or think we can solve those issues as they come up.
Most of the time, it's not even in companies interest to look too closely at the negative implications of their products, because then they'd have to act.
Hence, its better to anticipate problems at the design phase than deal with them after the thing is built and corporate inertia and sunk costs demand it stay the same or only get band-aid fixes to those problems.
Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
FWIW, I've never seen any value whatsoever in these ethics classes (note: I'm not saying it's not an important topic, it's extremely important). The hypotheticals and situations presented and discussed in many of them are very similar to yearly mandatory classes we have to take at FAANG (and many other workplaces I assume) and it boils down to having a checkbox that says "I'm not stupid". Real world ethics is much mo…
The one ethics course I took as an EE undergrad taught me exactly one lesson - that the whistleblower always has their life ruined, and even ones who (in the US) have received significant payments typically regret it. I think it's the reverse of the lesson they were trying to teach.
Not directly related to tech, but I really recommend the movie The Insider for a look at how whistleblowing goes. It’s about the tobacco industry but can likely be generalized to any situation.
Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021
#64Given the power tech has over the daily experiences of billions and how many questions of values and ethics it is now directly confronting in society, I'm a little surprised there's just one ethics course and one law course that cover these subjects, and they're electives [1]. We all know much of the learning in engineering is on the job anyways, so the role of formal education is less about particular job skills and…
FWIW, I've never seen any value whatsoever in these ethics classes (note: I'm not saying it's not an important topic, it's extremely important). The hypotheticals and situations presented and discussed in many of them are very similar to yearly mandatory classes we have to take at FAANG (and many other workplaces I assume) and it boils down to having a checkbox that says "I'm not stupid". Real world ethics is much mo…
Sounds like you just haven’t taken a good ethics class. I was required to take one in grad school (comp bio/biost at) taught by a law professor. Every week we were assigned a case study on a real-world ethics problem, such as the Duke/Potti scandal [1]. We wrote up answers to 5-6 discussion questions ahead of class, then spent the class time in small group discussion rather than lecture. I think it was one of the most valuable courses I took in grad school.
Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021
#65as a self taught individual I always find it outstanding how much things they are able to pack in a CS degree and how fast people forget all this stuff after graduation. Like how many of your coworkers from top CS schools remember most of the material in their compilers, cryptography, comp bio courses? EDIT: To clarify, I'm not criticizing this approach, I think it's great to expose students to as many subfields as p…
People will forget stuff over the summer before the next school year even begins. Much less waiting until after they graduate.
Material has to be covered repeatedly in a series of courses building on each other. E.g. first you learn basics. Then you apply it in subsequent classes. This is how mastery in learning works for anything. One class on an isolated topic is probably a waste of time in the long run, unless it really makes an impression on you for some reason (e.g., you really love it).
Some programs, especially overseas, let people mash together a broad range of classes on disparate topics with mastery in nothing (except perhaps for skill at cramming itself). Those are almost worthless degrees.
Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021
#66Given the power tech has over the daily experiences of billions and how many questions of values and ethics it is now directly confronting in society, I'm a little surprised there's just one ethics course and one law course that cover these subjects, and they're electives [1]. We all know much of the learning in engineering is on the job anyways, so the role of formal education is less about particular job skills and…
Having the computer science department, specifically, offer more ethics classes is controversial and has gone different ways at different universities. It may seem like an obvious win if you care about society, but many people interested in tech ethics (esp. those who don't consider themselves computer scientists) think it pushes in the wrong direction as far as systems and institutions go. At one place I've taught,…
Interesting, thanks for the context. I get that its tough to find the right dividing lines on these in a university context, though I admit I'm partial to more integrated approaches. Like, I can't help but imagine teaching ethics within a tech context would be far more stimulating for CS students than a general ethics course.
I guess the good part about a general ethics course would be exposure to students in other majors that think a bit differently, which would hopefully open up CS students perspectives.
On the other hand, a CS specific course would be able to do something like assign students a project to build something, and then follow it up with questions of whether that should be built at all, because the thing in question was ethically problematic.
Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021
#67This is a catalogue, not a curriculum. Students do not take 90 classes, but a selection of these together with classes outside their major.
Thanks for clarifying.
I was like damn they require 4 graphics courses? I avoided those like a plague.
Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021
#68Given the power tech has over the daily experiences of billions and how many questions of values and ethics it is now directly confronting in society, I'm a little surprised there's just one ethics course and one law course that cover these subjects, and they're electives [1]. We all know much of the learning in engineering is on the job anyways, so the role of formal education is less about particular job skills and…
This problem has been the basis of my own studies.
I’m studying computer science in an interdisciplinary build-your-own major style program, focusing on AI ethics. I’m not in any position to make these kinds of claims but I do think that, as you’ve mentioned, these issues will only become more serious in the near future.
At first I was a little worried that not having the traditional CS degree on my resume would hinder me from career opportunities but learning about problems within this space has been incredibly inspiring in its own right.
Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
I switched into Software Engineering following a physics undergrad and had to self-teach the majority of what I know. 10 years in, I find that many individuals fall into a trap of having forgotten many concepts while also thinking that they weren't useful in practice and a bad memory of having to learn/crunch the topic. This was a significant difference from my experience where most concepts I only picked up as I fou…
> Crunching algorithms for 2 semesters probably makes aspiring engineers feel that they are simply memorizing pages from a book which are trivially indexed by google. I realize that the majority of engineers will never need to use any of the more advanced topics taught in an algorithms class, but I hope you recognize the irony in this comment; the “trivial indexing” performed by Google is anything but, and, in fact,…
For the uninterested, it's easy to think or claim that a library or service will do the heavy lifting for you. If someone's goals with a comp-sci program are SaaS apps, web development or other topic which they perceive as [Not Hard], then it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking these topics don't matter.
I've generally found that most new or novel projects require a strong understanding of the fundamentals.
Re: Stanford CS Curriculum 2021
#70Given the power tech has over the daily experiences of billions and how many questions of values and ethics it is now directly confronting in society, I'm a little surprised there's just one ethics course and one law course that cover these subjects, and they're electives [1]. We all know much of the learning in engineering is on the job anyways, so the role of formal education is less about particular job skills and…
This list is also a bit incomplete, or more likely just refers to classes taught in the current school year. I co-teach a different ethics-focused class in the Stanford CS department (CS 181, which in this incarnation started in 2017). I think it's a pretty good class too, although as you suggest, there are limits on how much a quarter-long class can realistically accomplish. (We try to push the envelope with our project -- some of our students have protested outside Apple HQ or Robinhood, given presentations to the Palo Alto School Board, interviewed farmworkers and U.S. congresspeople about automation, handed out leaflets about net neutrality to tourists, etc.) The reading list and goals, etc., are up at https://cs181.stanford.edu.
In addition to the new "embedded EthiCS" program you mentioned, the CS program also offers a bunch of more focused classes on, e.g., trust and safety engineering (CS 152); law, order, and algorithms (CS 209); race and gender in Silicon Valley (CS 80Q), fair, accountable, and transparent deep learning (CS 335); computational social choice (CS 366); digital technology and law (CS 481); the Modern Internet (upcoming). And, of course, a much bigger range of classes about engineering, ethics, and public policy offered by colleagues across the university.
The truth, though, is that neither CS 181 or 182 is required per se. All Stanford undergrads have to take at least one course in ethics, and all undergrads in the School of Engineering have to take at least one course in Technology in Society, and both CS 181 and 182 fulfill both of those requirements. But many of our students do fulfill them by taking other classes.