Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1 • Hacker News Board

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#61

Post by wffurr » Mon, May 24, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #27

jeroenhd wrote: post #24

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

The Write XOR Execute restriction discussed in the article is a security feature, and it’s greatly beneficial from a security standpoint. > Until I can run a proper version of Firefox on iPad FireFox for iOS works just fine. The Gecko vs WebKit difference doesn’t really matter in practice. If you want general purpose computing, just get a Mac. You can run Firefox and any other program you’d like. It would be great if…

Comparing my iPad Pro with keyboard folio and a 2014 11” MacBook Air, I agree that the MacBook has a much better trackpad-and-keyboard experience.

I do wonder how the 12” iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard would compare. I haven’t used one yet, but I suspect it would be pretty good. The 12” display seems a little large for a tablet, though.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#62

Post by jorvi » Mon, May 24, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #31

jeroenhd wrote: post #24

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

I see it this way: Apple played the part of trailblazer, demonstrating that it was possible to run circles around Intel with modern RISC designs. We'll be seeing many more entries into the marketplace over the next few years, and MUCH greater diversity and consumer choice as a result. Sure, Apple did it for selfish reasons and they'll keep their platforms locked up as much as they can get away with, but the end resul…

If that was true, Snapdragon, Kirin or Exynos designs would have caught up by now.

The fact is that because Apple sells the iPhone for high profit margin and earns from the services and software sold on each iPhone, they can afford to stick a big, expensive chip in there. In contrast, profit margins on most Android phones are razor thin. Qualcomm has to design a chip that performs relatively well for as 'expensive' as the market can bear, as when their top chip is too expensive, OEMs will just build their phone with one of the lower tier Snapdragons.

Once you adjust for transistor count, Snapdragons et al are much closer to Apple's A-series than you'd think at first glance.

As for the M1, what shouldn't be discounted is the fact that Apple controls the entire stack, which means they could build in special features into it that together with Rosetta 2 make running X86 relatively performant.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#63

Post by klelatti » Mon, May 24, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

fartcannon wrote: post #54

api wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers. This nails it. I want full control and the ability to run anything on my computer. I want my phone to "just work" and I never want to fuck with it or worry about what's on it. They are different devices with different roles. What I do wish for is open ARM hardware with similar performance. I am totally certain that it is coming now that Apple has…

You don't have to fuck around with it! You CAN just use it like a regular locked down device, and throw it into a landfill when youre done. The rest of us can get on with using the otherwise wasted power of all these tiny computers. Think of the waste caused by Apples profiteering.

The real waste comes from inadequately powered devices that have to be retired early because they are no longer fast enough. I think Apple have a decent record on this front although right to repair is another matter.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#64

Post by sp332 » Mon, May 24, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #27

jeroenhd wrote: post #24

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

The Write XOR Execute restriction discussed in the article is a security feature, and it’s greatly beneficial from a security standpoint. > Until I can run a proper version of Firefox on iPad FireFox for iOS works just fine. The Gecko vs WebKit difference doesn’t really matter in practice. If you want general purpose computing, just get a Mac. You can run Firefox and any other program you’d like. It would be great if…

Firefox on iOS is not Gecko. Like all other browsers on iOS, it is a skin on the OS-provided Webkit. This is because fast JS execution depends on operations that are illegal for apps to access.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#65

Post by judge2020 » Mon, May 24, 2021, 1:27 PM UTC

fooqux wrote: post #44

threeseed wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple’s blanket ban on interpreted code is not arbitrary. It is there to prevent apps circumventing the review process and security model ie. apps pretending to do X during the review process and then doing Y when in use or obfuscating their use of private APIs. Now you can argue these restrictions are unreasonable but many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers.

> many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers And many of us do . I would never buy a locked-down piece of hardware like that. But I don't think it matters either way what either side wants, because it's what Apple wants that matters. They want to keep their walled garden's walls air tight, and there are apparently enough people that are OK living in that garden that it works. I'm positive tha…

There are many other devices locked down much more than iOS devices and this argument would apply to them as well. The only reason apple is the subject is because people want to take advantage of the massive, expensive engineering work that has happened over the past 15 years (in both hardware and software) without any of the limitations that go towards actually paying for that engineering effort (and enable many high-security use cases). If apple's product sucked and had horrible UX nobody would care.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#66

Post by gjsman-1000 » Mon, May 24, 2021, 1:28 PM UTC

fooqux wrote: post #44

threeseed wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple’s blanket ban on interpreted code is not arbitrary. It is there to prevent apps circumventing the review process and security model ie. apps pretending to do X during the review process and then doing Y when in use or obfuscating their use of private APIs. Now you can argue these restrictions are unreasonable but many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers.

> many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers And many of us do . I would never buy a locked-down piece of hardware like that. But I don't think it matters either way what either side wants, because it's what Apple wants that matters. They want to keep their walled garden's walls air tight, and there are apparently enough people that are OK living in that garden that it works. I'm positive tha…

Like everything in technology, you have a choice. If you want openness at the expense of security and privacy, you can purchase an Android or Windows device. If you want security and privacy more than openness, you buy an iPhone. The Hacker News crowd is unique in that we want to have our cake and eat it too by making the iPhone work more like Android and expressing outrage that such a choice exists.

So even though I wish iPhone would become more open, I find it strange that people are saying that we must break the iPhones App Store requirement to increase choice, even though that removes the choice to have a safer but locked down experience from the market.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#67

Post by ninjinxo » Mon, May 24, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

dougmwne wrote: post #13

Wow, that frames per watt graph is an eye opener for sure. What an incredible advancement in mobile computing.

Whilst very impressive, it's a bit exaggerated, they should have been locked to the same framerate for comparison:

* 9900k is boosting to 5ghz which is sacrificing efficiency.

* 9900k PC is delivering a much higher framerate, so it'd also have much higher GPU utilisation.

* Afaik RTX3090 will have high power draw even at low utilisation (large card, lots of memory).

From anandtech:

>Should users be interested, in our testing at 4C/4T and 3.0 GHz, the Core i9-9900K only hit 23W power. Doubling the cores and adding another 50%+ to the frequency causes an almost 7x increase in power consumption.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13400/intel-9th-gen-core-i9-9...

Look at the 3090s power consumption during media playback: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/zotac-geforce-rtx-3090-tr...

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#68

Post by fartcannon » Mon, May 24, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

coldcode wrote: post #56

fartcannon wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even worse when you consider the cost to humanity. They pay the brightest minds they can find to build walled gardens around knowledge. This is the same reason I don't use Microsoft or Google's stuff unless I have to. Knowledge wants to be free.

Yes and people take advantage of that freedom to extract a terrible toll on society in lost privacy, freedom, money, terror and the like. There is no freedom for just the good people without also allowing freedom for those who prey on others. It's like arguing that we should have no laws whatsoever because they impact your freedom to do whatever you want—but no one wants to live in that society. If you don't like App…

Your comment reminds me of that Simpson's clip where they move and Bart is put in the remdial Leg Up Program: “Let me get this straight. We’re behind the rest of our class and we’re going to catch up to them by going slower than they are?”

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#69

Post by mumblemumble » Mon, May 24, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

fooqux wrote: post #44

threeseed wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple’s blanket ban on interpreted code is not arbitrary. It is there to prevent apps circumventing the review process and security model ie. apps pretending to do X during the review process and then doing Y when in use or obfuscating their use of private APIs. Now you can argue these restrictions are unreasonable but many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers.

> many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers And many of us do . I would never buy a locked-down piece of hardware like that. But I don't think it matters either way what either side wants, because it's what Apple wants that matters. They want to keep their walled garden's walls air tight, and there are apparently enough people that are OK living in that garden that it works. I'm positive tha…

Google probably didn't do any real calculus, and I strongly doubt it was anything like a principled decision. They probably just realized that it simply wasn't an option. Android lacks the vertical integration that iOS has. It would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible, for Google to get Android licensees to accept such a heavily walled garden.

Remember that this decision was made over a decade ago, back when there were many competitors - both software and hardware vendors - vying for a foothold in the smartphone market. Google trying to flex its muscles too much would have sent its licensees scurrying toward competitors.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#70

Post by caddybox » Mon, May 24, 2021, 1:33 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #57

fooqux wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers And many of us do . I would never buy a locked-down piece of hardware like that. But I don't think it matters either way what either side wants, because it's what Apple wants that matters. They want to keep their walled garden's walls air tight, and there are apparently enough people that are OK living in that garden that it works. I'm positive tha…

Apple sells $20-30 billion worth of iPads each year. I think they might just survive without your business. And pretty sure it demonstrates that their formula of security and privacy over openness is the right one for them.

> Apple sells $20-30 billion worth of iPads each year.

> I think they might just survive without your business.

The parent post makes some the argument that the restrictive nature of iOS makes it unappealing to certain users. You counter that with a discussion-ending argument about how much money Apple makes.

Not everything that makes billions of dollars is immune to criticism. Especially since Apple markets the iPad as a "computer", a term that traditionally referred to unrestricted computing devices.